Social Cocooning or Salt and Light?
This is going to be a hard one for me. It will mean that I may tread hard on the toes of some of my friends. Also, there is a part of me that says that what I am about to say will be viewed as an attack on people. It is not. Just like the rest of my posts, it is meant to spark questions and reflects some of the questions that I constantly ask myself.
I have had a couple of conversations recently which have pointed the fact, that there is a great deal of what I would call social cocooning by Christians, especially evangelicals. Today, I was in a meeting that I was chairing. It was our employees recognition. It is traditional to give our employees the rest of the afternoon off after the luncheon, which ends around 2pm.
To send the employees home, I quoted the great philosopher and comic Martin Lawrence (OK, maybe he is not such the great philosopher) to dismiss them I said, "Look, you ain't got to go home, but you definitely got to get up outta here." Immediately some of my more conservative and older employees looked and said "Huh?" Those under 35 and who have some contact with things that are not necessarily considered Christian, laughed and cheered. Someone said, "That is so confusing. Are you shutting down the office?" I knew I was not in NYC anymore but firmly on the buckle of the Bible belt.
When I politely tried to explain why I said what I said and then made a reference to Martin Lawrence, it was lost on some people. One person even asked, "Why would I want to even watch anyone like that? I am a Christian!"
Earlier this Spring, a corps in our division held and American Idol contest. It was well-attended by Christians and non-Christians. It was a great outreach. Many were ministered to through the outreach. When reading that the corps was having "an idol competition" one of my colleagues (Who I absolutely love) said, "I find it incredibly offensive and anti-biblical that we would have a corps having an American Idol contest." He made a reference to an Old Testament Scripture talking about idols. This is the same person who when we were playing a game was shocked that Janet actually knew some of Madonna's songs. Aghast that Christians would even know about this, we were given to listen to a lecture on the evils of popular music. We could go into the fact that most "Christian" groups are recorded on labels owned by the same conglomerates that own labels on which hard core rappers and punkers record, but that would be too much for this post. That does not even go into the commercialization of Christianity. But alas, I digress.
I am also amazed at the amount of officers who either home school or do private school. If it was based on the issue of poor performing academic schools or insecure schools I would be more sympathetic. I know the argument from most of my friends is that they want to "protect" their kids from evil and humanistic influences. I argue that in order to really have a faith that is not embedded, but practical our kids must be put into places and situations where they stand up for their faith and work it out through temptation. By the way, Christian schools and other schools have many of the same problems that public schools do. I see this and the other issues as an attempt at social cocooning and living a monastic life instead of being salt and light in the world. I know I make broad statements here and each case must be weighed on its own merit.
Were there times, I challenged my kids and myself on the type of movies and music we listened to? Yes. I still do. Were there times I thought about my kids going to private school for the educational benefit? Yes. Never did I think about protecting them from worldly influence. I think that might give the devil too much credit.
Was I ever worried about going to hell for watching American Idol? Uh, no. In fact, I thought and still think it very important to be conversant on popular culture and to engage it for the sake of being salt and light in the world. By the way, I don't think popular culture is always as evil as many evangelicals make it out to be.
I see it as important for us to be in the middle of the whole thing. I see us needing to be in the midst, making a difference through engagement, not retreat or being cocooned. Should there be boundaries? Yes. Do I live on the edge of those boundaries and make some people uncomfortable? Definitely.
That is what makes faith so intriguing to me. As we work out our salvation with "fear and trembling," I think there is a whole movement of Christians who are trying to take back and redeem culture and knock down the Ned Flanders (By the way for those who are not in the loop, that is a reference to the Simpsons, one of the most popular TV shows of all time.) image evangelicals now sometime have.
I do struggle with how far is too far. I do struggle with a brand of Christianity that tends to shy away from conflict and engagement. You may think I am wrong. I admit I might be. I am working this out for myself. I am anxious to hear from you on these matters.
What do you think?
I have had a couple of conversations recently which have pointed the fact, that there is a great deal of what I would call social cocooning by Christians, especially evangelicals. Today, I was in a meeting that I was chairing. It was our employees recognition. It is traditional to give our employees the rest of the afternoon off after the luncheon, which ends around 2pm.
To send the employees home, I quoted the great philosopher and comic Martin Lawrence (OK, maybe he is not such the great philosopher) to dismiss them I said, "Look, you ain't got to go home, but you definitely got to get up outta here." Immediately some of my more conservative and older employees looked and said "Huh?" Those under 35 and who have some contact with things that are not necessarily considered Christian, laughed and cheered. Someone said, "That is so confusing. Are you shutting down the office?" I knew I was not in NYC anymore but firmly on the buckle of the Bible belt.
When I politely tried to explain why I said what I said and then made a reference to Martin Lawrence, it was lost on some people. One person even asked, "Why would I want to even watch anyone like that? I am a Christian!"
Earlier this Spring, a corps in our division held and American Idol contest. It was well-attended by Christians and non-Christians. It was a great outreach. Many were ministered to through the outreach. When reading that the corps was having "an idol competition" one of my colleagues (Who I absolutely love) said, "I find it incredibly offensive and anti-biblical that we would have a corps having an American Idol contest." He made a reference to an Old Testament Scripture talking about idols. This is the same person who when we were playing a game was shocked that Janet actually knew some of Madonna's songs. Aghast that Christians would even know about this, we were given to listen to a lecture on the evils of popular music. We could go into the fact that most "Christian" groups are recorded on labels owned by the same conglomerates that own labels on which hard core rappers and punkers record, but that would be too much for this post. That does not even go into the commercialization of Christianity. But alas, I digress.
I am also amazed at the amount of officers who either home school or do private school. If it was based on the issue of poor performing academic schools or insecure schools I would be more sympathetic. I know the argument from most of my friends is that they want to "protect" their kids from evil and humanistic influences. I argue that in order to really have a faith that is not embedded, but practical our kids must be put into places and situations where they stand up for their faith and work it out through temptation. By the way, Christian schools and other schools have many of the same problems that public schools do. I see this and the other issues as an attempt at social cocooning and living a monastic life instead of being salt and light in the world. I know I make broad statements here and each case must be weighed on its own merit.
Were there times, I challenged my kids and myself on the type of movies and music we listened to? Yes. I still do. Were there times I thought about my kids going to private school for the educational benefit? Yes. Never did I think about protecting them from worldly influence. I think that might give the devil too much credit.
Was I ever worried about going to hell for watching American Idol? Uh, no. In fact, I thought and still think it very important to be conversant on popular culture and to engage it for the sake of being salt and light in the world. By the way, I don't think popular culture is always as evil as many evangelicals make it out to be.
I see it as important for us to be in the middle of the whole thing. I see us needing to be in the midst, making a difference through engagement, not retreat or being cocooned. Should there be boundaries? Yes. Do I live on the edge of those boundaries and make some people uncomfortable? Definitely.
That is what makes faith so intriguing to me. As we work out our salvation with "fear and trembling," I think there is a whole movement of Christians who are trying to take back and redeem culture and knock down the Ned Flanders (By the way for those who are not in the loop, that is a reference to the Simpsons, one of the most popular TV shows of all time.) image evangelicals now sometime have.
I do struggle with how far is too far. I do struggle with a brand of Christianity that tends to shy away from conflict and engagement. You may think I am wrong. I admit I might be. I am working this out for myself. I am anxious to hear from you on these matters.
What do you think?
posted by Larry at 4:39 PM
30 Comments:
Dare I Comment???? hahaa.. I agree with you on your views about pop culture... What I don't understand is this. If we cut ourselves off from the whole media world how on earth are we going to relate with those who aren't christians?? I'm not saying go out and buy 50 cent's cds or anything but you should atleast know who he is. There is definitely a line drawn somewhere as to how much is too much but How do you build a relationship with someone when you have nothing in common???
Major Ashcraft, young people consider you to be such a cool person, including myself :) And you know why? Because you are so aware of pop culture and the media and people my age find it awesome that they can talk about that sort of stuff with you. I think if the Army wants to grow even bigger and have more youth then ever before, we need more Major Ashcrafts. People who can relate to what is going on in our lives.
As for the whole homeschool thing I completely disagree with it. By doing it they are cutting their child off from the real world. One day that kid is going to grow up and go out into the real world. Then what? Culture Shock! The poor kid isn't going to know anything about the real world. I think that is far worse then going to a school.
Anyway that is enough for now. I could go on forever about this. :)
This comment has been removed by the author.
Larry,
I used to advocate public schools arguing “if all the Christians take their kids out of public schools where would the Christian influence be?”
However, I am now singing a different song . . .
The question is this: Is the time at home and church enough time to develop a biblical worldview within our children? This is especially important when our kids are constantly being influenced by secular schools and a society that teach values contrary to Christian beliefs.
Someone once likened our children to a tree – you have to protect it until its roots grow deep and strong. After the roots develop and the tree can stand alone you can take the protective covering off. In order for our children to become the men and women God is calling them to be we must place them in an environment that is saturated with Godly values and people, an environment that will allow their roots to grow deep in His Word and Ways.
As parents, it is our responsibility to teach our children to walk after Christ. We must train and equip them to naturally interpret and respond to life in ways that are consistent with God’s plan as revealed in the Bible. This training must be done strategically and intentionally. Christian Schools can be instrumental in the training process.
Barna’s book “Transforming Children into Spiritual Champs” is pretty helpful in understanding the challenge and importance of developing a Biblical Worldview within our children.
Good post.
Blessings,
Bret
Bret,
I agree to an extent. Most "greenhouse trees" usually snap because they have not been weathered or tested. I think the principle that needs to be at play here is the Hebrew Sh'ma found in Deuteronomy.
The statistics and my experience points to the family being the building block of faith. I also know that the stats and experience point to Christian schools not being that much different from public schools when it comes to the issues from which we want to protect our children.
I often think that we contribute to an unnatural worldview and weak faith if we use school as an excuse for children being influenced for "the wrong things."
Good morning Larry! Your post is provacative as always. Salt left in a bowl, only surrounded by more salt, has no taste. Its purpose is wrapped up in its use. Not until it is USED is its full purpose complete. Being salt and light, carrying the spiritual aspects of the life of faith, must be exposed to places in life.
I think the Black Eyed Peas, Linkin Park, and Chemical Romance have so many gospel themes and statements they should not be ignored. Christians interacting with the pop culture is essential and is not something you can fake or pretend about. I used a verse and chorus from maroon 5 as a launch into a Bible study recently and I nearly surprised someone so much he almost swallowed his teeth. A modern illustration, a perspective about love, but since its not played on the Christian stattion with the hymns it was trash. Life is so much bigger than that.
Salt and light must know what the dishes on the table are, what the closets contain.
As a mother I feel caught in the tug-o-war of desiring to protect my children and encoruaging them to grow. We have used public school education, and it has been phenomenal. And frustrating. In our home, before school age the swear words which got punishment were the "s" word "shut-up" and the "f" word, "fair". My 1st grader, my youngest, now knows those are just mommy words, the "real" "s" word and "f" word get used everyday around them at school. It makes me more determined to help them know about love and language and caring and compassion.
My 6th grader is choosing a science project about the creation of the world, and is ENCOURAGED to present his points of faith, ideas and opinions. My two elementary schools have Bible verses plastered on the walls of the halls, accompanied by other words of wisdom and great thinkers.
I spend alot of time in the classrooms of these middle schools and elementary schools and come to several conclusions - there is too much distraction by having boys and girls learning together in the same environment, there is not enough serious thinking encouraged, there can always be more reading expected and my teachers expect my children to develop some ideas about faith. My daughter has learned about the dedicated fasting of Ramadon from a Muslim friend and in turn speaks very plainly about her dedicated fasting time of Lent.
I pray for them everyday they step out the door, but I know their faith has to mean something because it gets used, not just because it applied and gets attention.
Jessie,
Thanks for your insight. I think you and I have much the same thoughts on this.
It is a real balancing act though, isn't it?
Larry,
We have talked about this subject several times both blogging and actual real speak.
On one end, you have a point in which we are to be in the world but not of the world. We are to be Salt and light in a world filled with darkness. We need to understand what the world is thinking in order to be more practical of our approach to winning them to the Kingdom. Paul understood the way Romans thought and what they did with their free time, what they read, where they went. He understood their culture put himself in their culture but did not compromise His faith. he did this to be a more practical minister of the Gospel.
I believe radical religion generates itself out of what you have coined as social cocooning. When we choose to segegate ourselves from the world, we get Jim Jones or David Kereshs of the world.
But on the other end, I have seen to many Christians leaders, especially Youth Pastors and lay leaders go to far to the other side of the fence. Saying oh I am owning 8 mile for ministry reason or Fight Club for ministry purposes. We are to understand the world but not to be in the world. Owning videos or music of this nature in my opinion is being in the world. Yes, have I seen 8 Mile or Fight club of course but do I watch them for enjoy or own them so i can watch them anytime I would like, No. There is definately a line, but for some it is a line in the sand, one that gets confused when the wind blows.
We need to understand the world and what the world is thinking so that we can better minister to them for the sake of the Gospel. Understanding the world for the sake of getting souls in the Kingdom and to develop a real faith for a real God within our congregations.
This is definately a rant, this is a very touchy subject for me personally.
Blessings
Bill
oh by the way GOOD POST!!!
Larry,
I am instantly taken back to our elective class at SFOT, ahh.(Cue the corny music)
How far is too far? We are to be in the world but not of the world. Where is the line? I was reading James the other day and it resembled the same thought if I am of the world then I'm not God's. How much can I submerge myself in culture before going too far? I took Xavier to see the new Spiderman movie and one of the posters said, "Can a man confront the forces of darkness without giving in to them?" Can we listen to music and watch movies that aren't "Christian"? I think we can and I think it is vital that we do.
I have a guy who just started coming to the Corps and on the way to a Men's Bowling Tourney we talked about MTV's new show 'Scared' and it fell into the show Jacka**, was I wrong? Am I authentic if I put on Michael W. Smith in the van, when that's not my taste (no offence to anyone who likes him), not in my opinion. But am I hindering my guys if I am listening to U2 or Linkin Park or even Van Halen? (By the way Larry Linkin Park has a new cd coming out May15th) I think others need to see that you can be a man of God with your hair down. That's hard for me and you since we have short hair, but seriously I don't think the people who come to the Corps would benefit if I was to put on a mask.
I had to respond to this post because I find myself explainning quotes and other sayings that aren't from the "Christian" entertainment realm.
Home Schooling is a difficult subject and I think it goes along with the previous thought how much do we need to protect ourselves or our kids from the big bad world? How much can we dip in society without losing our grip on God? I know people who love home schooling their kids, fine, I just think that kids need another outlet. Do we smother our kids when we have them all the time or are we helping them?
Good post Larry I'll probably come back later gotta get back to work now.
First, in regards to your title.. “Social Cocooning or Salt and Light?”, I am assuming the question is whether we should be social cocoons or salt and light to the world. Obviously the answer would be that we should be salt and light to the world… we must be!
I don’t necessarily agree with the whole social cocooning thing though. Because someone chooses not to engage in pop culture and be exposed to all of the things society has to often, they are considered socially cocooned? Because someone is offended when a pastor uses references to Martin Lawrence in their place of employment, which is a place of faith, they are considered socially cocooned? Because someone chooses not to listen to pop and rap music, they are socially cocooned? Because a parent chooses not to educate their child in a public, government run school, those kids are socially cocooned?
I pray your answer to those questions are no! I think it would be arrogant to think that others are socially cocooned because they have different ways and views on life and their Christian walk than those of yours.
As a homeschool parent… well a former homeschooling parent who very well might do it again some day…I thought your opinions on the homeschooling were obviously off. A case could be made in just about any school district in this country that the academic standards are not up to par. Look at the test scores of school children world wide and you will see how far behind the good ole USA is getting. I could make a case as well about the fact that just about any school in this country could be considered insecure. I live in a very nice neighborhood and school district… too nice for officers to live in, but I digress. Just yesterday there was a bomb threat at my daughter’s school. It is a school that contains all 5th and 6th graders. Last month a seventh grader in the middle school was expelled for selling drugs in my other daughter’s school. That same week, in the same school a kid was expelled for bringing a weapon to school. These are considered “secure” schools in the suburbs. I only bring those two things up because you mentioned you would be more sympathetic to parents in regards to homeschooling if these were the cases.
If Satan were to take off his mask and overtly establish schools with the express purpose of teaching a worldview from his perspective and with a secondary purpose of undermining all that was of God, how fast would the Christian community be in signing up their 5, 6, 7 year olds into this indoctrination? Because that is exactly what we are doing. Is placing our children under 8 hours per day of influence/indoctrination into the world’s way of thinking really the preferred approach? These are kids we are talking about…. children…not mini-adults.
I wonder if there are other ways to reach these non-Christian children in the schools without sacrificing ours before we have the opportunity to ground them in their faith? There is a reason why public schools begin at age 5 and ends at about the age of 22. The human brain is not fully developed until about the age of 24. So during that primary time of development, the world (Satan) gets 40 hours a week, the church if lucky gets 2 or 3 hours a week.
Sorry... I didn't set out to write this much!
it's a question of balance. Private and Christian schools may be the right fit depending on your child. Public schools vary from region to region or town to city. Some are not worthy at all. Some are pretty good.
If your kid is socially adept and fits well in the pattern of the Public school, it's certainly the right place for the Christian youth. If your child doesn't fit well, then Christian or private may be better. Most soldiers I know in the Army don't have that choice though, because of expense. If it's a matter of protecting your child from the evils of the world, that can work both ways, sometimes it's good to do that, sometimes its better not be in the world. I don't think though, that a blanket judgment can be made on this. It's about parents wanting what is best for their child.
I was pretty worldly when I brought up my first child, many of you know him. I was criticized the whole way, for allowing him to listen to the music he listened to etc. etc. then by the time he was in high school he was turning his friends onto classical music. And is now ministering to the homeless and addicted.
I let him get in trouble while he was at home so we could work it out before he left. and he got into plenty,just like his dad. Except I never got caught, he wore getting caught like a badge!
My younger, is a social butterfly and has attended both Christian and public. Fits well in both. Is salt in both.
Salt is in all of us. We can be salt in and out of the world. the Christian world is not that much different than the non Christian world today anyway.This is a tricky post because it really does border a bit on judgment. Cause some parents just are doing the best they can. And don't always get the motivation quite right.
Cocooning is an interesting word because it implies that something will eventually be birthed. The question is, will it birth a moth, or a butterfly. Both do serve a purpose. It's just one gets better press than the other.
Larry,
“Most "greenhouse trees" usually snap because they have not been weathered or tested. . .” That’s funny . . . I don’t know much about greenhouse trees so I can’t really argue with that.
However, it’s not about “cocooning” or whether there’s a difference or not between public and Christian schooling . . . It’s about training.
School needs to be part of the training strategy. The Jewish people interpret the Sh'ma in this way. For them, the Word of God is incorporated into every area of life.
Great comments by everyone . . . Good stuff!
Like many things, I don’t personally think there’s one overriding answer for everybody here. My personal struggle may not be somebody else’s, and vice verse. My wife can’t listen to Alanis Morisette because Alanis’ music tends to raise up the anger in Jamie towards her father, but it doesn’t affect me like that. To me its just good music. Other music sends my mind racing off in directions I’d rather not go, but has no affect on my wife whatsoever. You’ve got to make wise choices and we’ve got to develop the kind of relationships where honest discussions like that can take place in the church, something we’re not doing very well at these days. And, while it’s true that Paul knew an awful lot about Roman culture, I doubt he visited very many Roman baths to do it.
Interesting that school seems to be the thing that people have really latched onto out of this debate. This may come as a shock to those of you who know me, but I actually agree with those of you who suggest that a Christian education might be a better choice for your child, and for many of the reasons already listed. And yes, your child might be in for a bit of a shock if they have no contact with the outside world (I was), but I guess I’d rather risk a shock than the confusion that comes from being taught something contrary to what your parents are teaching at home by one of the people you respect most in your young life (your teacher). I also think there are ways to make sure that your child isn’t living in a bubble, even if they are receiving a Christian education. Having said that, and on a side note, I’ve not seen very many Christians schools who offer a good education past the sixth grade.
In response to some of your other thoughts…
My interest in popular culture goes beyond just wanting to be able to discuss a popular song with a lost person. My interest lies in wanting to know what those outside of the church are thinking about the church and our message. Offended by Marolyn Manson? Fine. But listen up, because he’s talking about us and he’s making some really good points. “The beautiful people, the beautiful people. It’s all relative to the size of your steeple.”
Btw, is this the forum to ask what in the world Bill’s problem is with Fight Club? Fight Club might be the most important movie of my generation.
It bugs me when people try to separate anything, not written or directed by a Christian, as being “non-Christian”, which basically means “not of God”. Wow. God spoke audibly through a Jack Ass (had to type that out fully in response to an earlier poster’s decision to censure the word), you don’t think he can talk through a non-believer??? I mean, I realize that I’ve still got God in a box and all, but I’m pretty sure my box is bigger than that. Something I’ve really been stirred by in the past few years is the recognition that God is always taking opportunities to introduce Himself to people, even through popular, “non-Christian” culture, just as he did through those pagan statues in Rome. C’mon people! This is GOD we’re talking about…right?
The Bible tells us (he says, quoting some vague non-referenced verse) that all truth is from God, so if it is true, it is from God, and it is yours. Let’s not be so arrogant to believe that God only speaks through people who call themselves Christians. God speaks through all of his creation. Nature tells the story of a creator, so no man has an excuse for not knowing. And God speaks that same truth through the rest of His creation as well. If a song is beautiful and moves you, thank God for it. It was He who spoke it into existence.
Tim caused me to go back and read everyone comments again. I agree with Brett, good stuff here. I like what Bill said about Paul understanding about the Romans. disagree about the fight club movie reference though. Or even making that judgment about owning movies like that. That was one of the most poignant movies I have every seen. Although I personally in preparing to move, have given away most of my DVDs of that nature as well as any books that are not spiritual in nature. Because this is where Christ has me in my life. I no longer need the poignancy of the world for my edification. Nor do I need much more of the world for the effectiveness of my witness. Even though I was brought up in the Church, specifically the Salvation Army, I have enough of the world in me form the past 30 years, I'm 51, to last me an eternity.
God does speak in all men/women. Christian, non Christian. But in fact it is much mixed with wrath, As well as much mixed with evil. This is not my idea, it's scriptural and my experience. I have left a trail of wounded lovers, friends and acquaintances from misguided missiles of self righteous "God" paraphrasing.
It is only now through the holy spirit that I can have the assurance that what I say and live will either be true or corrected by the holy spirit before it wounds someone. This is also what allows me to know that whatever issues or choices, Christian or world views my children encounter in their life, they are covered by the Lord and protected as well.
I think Larry that it is not the choices or the reasons people give for doing things this way or that way that is what we need to come against, but the fear in them that causes them them to be judgmental and socially "cocooned."
I pray that the Church will become more like this forum. Not being afraid to hammer out the truth to the very end. God Bless all of you. And especially you Larry for having the courage and the leading to open up the portals of the truth.
Sue,
I knew this one would get people fired up!!!! I love it!!!!
This is the way we get to solid doctrine...through debate. I am even intriguied at the thought that I might be arrogant!!!!! Never been accused of that before;)
I do believe, we are far away from Kingdom and Army principles if we don't have an honest working knowledge of the world. William Booth got criticized for using bar tunes, with words that were sacred. The fact is that he knew the words which were a bit....salty. He redeemed culture and could talk the language. As a matter of fact, Jesus knew the culture of His day. If you read the original languages and the scripture in context historically, you would know that Jesus spoke and knew and sometime conversed with the sordid and used their language. The whole story of Mary wiping His feet with her tears when taken in its cultural context is quite shocking and provocative.
As to the school issue, you will note that I did say each case should be weighed on its own merit. The fact is that your kids are more likely statistically to die in a car accident than to die at school. You still drive? Also, statistics also show us that private schools (even Christian ones) have at least the same amount of issues per capita as public schools. Actually, my first experience with drugs and alcohol and my children's first experience was at a Salvation Army Camp.
I think we give Satan too much credit for his work. 40 hours of Satan at school? What about the thousands of Christian teachers who teach in public schools and make a difference? What about the rest of the time Christian parents have? I am not sure it is quantity, but quality.
Do I think there is an evangelical movement that needs to step out and engage right where we are and in the midst of all of this. Yes.
Is my brand of Christianity better than yours? No. I would hasten to say though I am very concerned that if we continue to run from culture, we will not conquer it but be in full retreat.
I do think it takes all types to be the Body. I thank you for your contribution to the Kingdom....you are a treasure.
I believe that God can and will speak through anything and everything because he is the ultimate creator of everything. But I also believe that there are lines out there that we cross everyday, playing the reasons of ministry.
We need to know where these lines are in our own hearts in order to better minister for the gospel. I battle everyday with lines that I have made in my own life. God is great and powerful can heal anyone from sinfulness. But he gives us free will pick and choose our own path. We just have to pay attention to our lines in which protects us from going to far. Paul knew his own line and he may have stepped on it a few times, we know that he stayed faithful.
I ask this question (sorry Larry)
Is there different rights and wrongs for each individual person?
Because I won't own Fight Club or 8 Mile that suddenly makes me indignant towards people who do? Crazy! I believe each of us has a line set up that is to far, and for me I have cross that line to many times.
I hope this made sense, if not im sure you will tell me about it.
Blessings
Sue,
A little further comment....I do not advocate steady diets of rap music or R rated movies. I do think there needs to be a balance.
Bill,
As far as right and wrong for each person...I look at it this way. If you can honestly be held accountable by trusted friends with differing opinions, you can begin to discover your boundaries. I am not sure it is a discussion of right and wrong. It is about strength and support. Am I saying that what 50 says is right...NO. I am saying that I need to at least be conversant and not condemning without even thinking about it. The problem is Otherwise, I have no way to really reach the sinner with their language. I think the issue is to say "this is evil" without even beginning to understand it. We make judgements on other people's opinion and don't test the spirits ourselves.
Yes, that makes sense Larry, I understand that we are accountable to each other. Actually being accountable means that we have to be more open and honest about each other strengths and weaknesses.
My only issue and maybe I am being a little close-minded is listening and watching are one thing, but when we begin to dwell in the things of the world, I believe that we begin to allow things that we would of swore off a year ago begin to become easily acceptable now. It becomes easier for us to listen and watch. I am speaking from experience, and still struggle on certain levels of acceptance with these things.
We have to be accountable to others not only for differing opinions but we have to be accountable to others to reel our hearts and minds back in when they have gone to far.
I hope no one felt that I was judging, because it was not meant to come out that way and now that I read it again, it does sound that way. Blogging is great but voiced conversation is the best.
I'm not sure that I think you're judging as much as I think you might be giving things over to Satan that are not his.
I remember when Amy Grant's Baby Baby song first came out. Christians were absolutely up in arms over it. Imagine! A Christian artist singing about anything other than the holiness of God! The love of your husband (or in this case, quite literally her baby girl) should be kept within the privacy of your own home. Public songs should be limited to the kind of topics that can be discussed in church services and sexual attraction is not one of them! (despite the fact that we have an entire book of erotica in our Bibles)
I'm just saying that truth and beauty belong to God. Period. And not all truth, and not all beauty, come with the plan of salvation printed and attached to the inside sleeve.
I would like to follow up my schools comment by reiterating the fact that it must be taken on a case by case basis. I've known many Christian schools that I would never send my child to. In fact, to send her to some of those schools would be to almost confirm the fact that Christianity is just a word, rather than a conviction. And yes Larry, there are great Christian teachers out there serving in public schools. In fact, my mother is one of them. But I would also never suggest to a parent that, unless they send their child to public school, they are not teaching their child how to be salt.
Bill,
Once again....don't just concentrate on the world. It is balance. Tim is doctrinally correct. All truth comes from God. I was going to use the Amy Grant illustration. Tim beat me to it.
I think that much of what we call holiness also tends to be piety and legalism. Jesus came to set us free from such things and establish a new order. In so doing, I submit he touched the world where it was and as it was. He understood it. Numbers 19 is an interesting passage on making the unclean holy. It makes for a good study.
As far as the school thing, once again, I weigh each on their merit.
I do believe we need to let our kids be tested. I trusted the Lord for my boys. He is still working his plan in them. Again, Tim is right. There are many Christian schools that I would never have sent my kids to....
Larry,
Maybe arrogance wasn't the best word to use! I hope I didn't offend you. I honestly didn't mean for it to come out in that way. You caught me on a day where I was a bit frustrated with some of your buddies up there at DHQ. It resulted in a less then gentle spirit in my writings.
When all is said and done, I think parents need to take great care in the choices they make for their children, including the education of their children. Obviously there are Christian teachers in public schools. My oldest went to public school in fourth grade and after that year we gave her the option to continue in public schooling or come home. She wanted to come home because she missed being with her family. She had a horrible teacher. I used to help in the classroom periodically and I would have to say that teacher was the coldest person I've ever met in my life. She taught well, but had no personality. It saddened me at school parties when the 4th graders just sat there. Kids are not supposed to be sitting in quiet during a party!
I committed to home education for each of my kids through the third grade. I wanted to be the one to teach them the basics of reading and math. Why did I start? Because the kids in our community(and the corps cadets I taught each week) were clueless in regards to academics. 7th graders were not able to put a sentence together! Actually Larry walk down to the Youth Department and ask to see the Corps Cadet lessons that have been turned in. You would be stunned at how many of the kids cannot write, spell, or express themselves. That was a bit scary to me. The sole reason I began to homeschool was for academic purposes.
After being exposed to Christian homeschoolers for a few years, and seeing how great my kids were turning out, I realized that homeschooling was a wonderful opportunity for my kids and the development of their faith.
I homeschooled for 8 years. All three kids are in public school now. After each school year we would take time as a family and as individuals and pray about what type of education we were going to do the following year. This past June was the first time all five in our family felt that public school would be the best option.
We have been praying for the last several weeks about our options for next year. Who knows where that will lead? I will say that my oldest has been salt and light to those around her. My middle is still trying to figure it all out (she is my social butterfly). My youngest is doing well too in regards to his faith.
I wouldn't say we have different brands of Christianity. I think we have different styles of ministry. Your style is to know the culture and converse with and interact with young people within their culture. My style is to know the culture and know what the kids are experiencing, but rather than live their culture, I live my own. I accept them. They accept me. Both are based on relationship which is the important thing. The beauty of Christianity is that God wired you to be able to relate to certain folks and me to relate to other folks. I too believe that Christians need to get out there and be salt and light. Some do hide away and never share their faith or their lives with others. That is wrong!
You wrote so many things that I don't think I could possible respond to them all! I did want to say that I think that whole quantity vs. quality thing is a joke. Kids need their parents around. The time spent needs to be quality time, but quantity counts too. At the moment, I do not have the quality or quantity with my kids. That's a bit personal huh???
The reality is that the typical kid has several afterschool activities a week. With those activities and homework there is very little time a parent actually has with their kids. Throw in being an officer and having church activities a few nights a week and that can really take a toll on the family.
I just spent some time with an officers kid not too long ago. I asked what he thought about a particular topic that I know his family is contemplating and the response I got was, "I don't know. My parents don't talk to me. They are never home." It broke my heart. I know his parents are good people. I know they spend time with their kids. Kids see things differently though. The quantity of time does matter.
One more thing Larry Boy..
You know I don't like commenting on your blog, so no more posts on topics you know will fire me up!
Sue,
No problem....As to your last post about officers not spending time with their children and not talking to them...They are out of balance scripturally. Remember what the requirements of a bishop are. Being in tune and control of their own households...
Unfortunately, there have been a few days of experiencing that lack of balance with people I hold dear. They have made some bad choices at the expense of their family.
Great post! I recently stirred the pot by using Bono's NAACP speech/preach in a teaching setting. And, at Youth Councils last weekend, prelude music was none other than U2's 18 album. I look at Jesus' use of pop culture of his day to make his points as an example of how we are to make our points.
In mission work, we must understand the culture we're trying to reach - whether that is a foreign culture, geographically or a foreign culture, pschyologically and/or metaphorically.
I get the relational part, I guess I am still stuck on the theory what's a sin for me might not be a sin for you. We create a lot of grey areas with that thought. I understand it as well too. I have a pastor friend who celebrated his birthday with some wine and I am not going to share his denomination. Me I celebrated my birthday with coke, sushi, and cold stone ice cream, not the point.
Who am I to say he's right or wrong? What can we do as Christians and ministers of the Gospel to make clear and decisive moral and Godly decisions on certain issues that aren't specifically outlined in the Bible?
Maybe I am just regergitating everything everyone has allready said.
I don’t mean to get of the subject . . . but I love Tim’s comment about “giving things over to Satan that are not his.”
The truth is this: It all belongs to God. If we truly belong to Him we should give everything back to Him in worship. Fight Club, Ozzy, Godsmack, and well?. . . Marylin Manson? . . . Even the worst stuff can be given back to God.
One of the characteristics of the “emerging church” is the breaking down of the separation between “sacred” and “secular.” All things were created by God . . . We were created in His image. . . All things are sacred. All things should be given over to God as an act of worship.
Great discussion going on here. Larry, you just might break the world blog record with this one.
Blessings,
Bret
I don't have any of my own thoughts to add tonight. But it is interesting that in Oswald Chambers devotional selected for today, Saturday, May 12 is this:
"Love means that there are no visible habits— that your habits are so immersed in the Lord that you practice them without realizing it. If you are consciously aware of your own holiness, you place limitations on yourself from doing certain things— things God is not restricting you from at all. This means there is a missing quality that needs to be added to your life. The only supernatural life is the life the Lord Jesus lived, and He was at home with God anywhere. Is there someplace where you are not at home with God? Then allow God to work through whatever that particular circumstance may be until you increase in Him, adding His qualities. Your life will then become the simple life of a child."
http://www.rbc.org/utmost/index.php
Shane,
Our stance on drinking is not theological in my opinion. It is missional. Drunkeness is a sin. If drinking were a sin, Jesus would be a sinner.
Larry,
I certainly don't disagree that drinking is more of a missional stance, as I was reading in Booth's bio by Roger Green, he drank for medicinal purposes until he met Catherine. She, because of her father's issue with drinking, was real strong on marring a man who didn't drink.Army beginnings were very anit-alchol. So the reason I brought up drinking because it is one of my temptations.
I think drinking is wrong for me as an officer and as a man of God because of what I've seen in my family with drinking, because of my history with the illness of alcholism. You see though it's not theologically a sin; it is a sin for me personally. But it's not a sin for other people some can have a glass of wine and stop there, me if I drink a glass of wine I would follow it up with a 12pack of Bud Ice. I guess it's the same for others with movies and music or anything else. Who knows, this blog has kept me thinking for the past couple of days, good stuff all.
Ok, so I may get lost in the shuffle but wanted to give one example from a visitor on one of my sites...he says that he has only experienced 2 types of Christians in his life...the first are liars/hypocrits...the others are untouchable. OUCH! What a verdict to bear. God has given me the opportunity to be real without being placed in either category. This is the primary reason he is "spiritual" not Christian. May God help us find the relevance to reach others with His Good News!!!
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