Godly in a different way?
Yesterday I had the opportunity of sharing a meal with a group of retired officers. I grilled a variety of red meat, participated in a couple of silly games (Those who know me well, know that in itself was an act of humility and grace on my part.) and joined in some meaningful conversation with a couple of people who have known me since I was a young child or a teenager.
I love these people. They love God. Many of them have prayed for me and have pledged themselves to pray for some very difficult situations in our part of the vineyard.
I also realized that their view of ministry is incredibly different from mine. There was talk of our corps needing more "program." "Where is the open-air?" one asked. I thought to myself, "Why would we have one like they did?" Maybe it worked for them. I think now most of what we think of as an open-air meeting would cause us to be laughed at or at worst ignored.
There was very little talk of ministry to the poor. Instead the language centered around building our corps around "good people." I am not sure what that means.
Most of them are staunch Republicans. Many understood it as the party of the Christians. I am fairly conservative, but realize that God is neither Republican or Democrat.
I also have realized since my move back to the Midwest that I live in an incredibly conservative culture. Many of the people I am meeting see Christianity in terms of T-shirt slogans and traditional evangelical values. This is not necessarily a bad thing. It is just not my thing.
I think that much of this thought of conservative equaling Christian and Program equaling ministry is due to the training of a generation by the godly people with whom I shared a meal. They are godly!!! They are just godly in a different way from me.
They pray hard. They love people, even if they do judge some. They express a desire for God to have His way in the world. I just see their way as being so out of touch with where I am and where I think this emerging culture is.
Don't get me wrong, I love and respect the faithfulness of these people. Every-once-in-while, I think that maybe I am out of touch. Maybe I am too liberal. I struggle with some of the evangelical values which stress performance instead of personal and spiritual development. They equate a warrior mentality of wanting to win the world with evangelism and apologetics instead of a wooing mentality which serves people.
into the Kingdom.
While I thanked these people for their faithfulness and prayer, I really saw myself as being somewhere else in my walk. It is not that I am better. I am different. I am trying to be Godly, but in a very different way. For that matter, I see myself as very different from many of those who are part of our movement.
Someone once said "Tradition is the living faith of the dead. Traditionalism is the dead faith of the living." So where do we strike a balance? While I owe much to those who have gone before or those with whom I work now, where do we have a meeting of the minds? As the emerging church starts moving into the Army (I see this coming fast) how do we keep ourselves from being in constant, bitter conflict? Although I do not doubt the godliness of many of my mentors and colleagues, I find myself and many others as so different. Is it possible for us all to be godly and committed, but godly in a different way?
What do you think?
I love these people. They love God. Many of them have prayed for me and have pledged themselves to pray for some very difficult situations in our part of the vineyard.
I also realized that their view of ministry is incredibly different from mine. There was talk of our corps needing more "program." "Where is the open-air?" one asked. I thought to myself, "Why would we have one like they did?" Maybe it worked for them. I think now most of what we think of as an open-air meeting would cause us to be laughed at or at worst ignored.
There was very little talk of ministry to the poor. Instead the language centered around building our corps around "good people." I am not sure what that means.
Most of them are staunch Republicans. Many understood it as the party of the Christians. I am fairly conservative, but realize that God is neither Republican or Democrat.
I also have realized since my move back to the Midwest that I live in an incredibly conservative culture. Many of the people I am meeting see Christianity in terms of T-shirt slogans and traditional evangelical values. This is not necessarily a bad thing. It is just not my thing.
I think that much of this thought of conservative equaling Christian and Program equaling ministry is due to the training of a generation by the godly people with whom I shared a meal. They are godly!!! They are just godly in a different way from me.
They pray hard. They love people, even if they do judge some. They express a desire for God to have His way in the world. I just see their way as being so out of touch with where I am and where I think this emerging culture is.
Don't get me wrong, I love and respect the faithfulness of these people. Every-once-in-while, I think that maybe I am out of touch. Maybe I am too liberal. I struggle with some of the evangelical values which stress performance instead of personal and spiritual development. They equate a warrior mentality of wanting to win the world with evangelism and apologetics instead of a wooing mentality which serves people.
into the Kingdom.
While I thanked these people for their faithfulness and prayer, I really saw myself as being somewhere else in my walk. It is not that I am better. I am different. I am trying to be Godly, but in a very different way. For that matter, I see myself as very different from many of those who are part of our movement.
Someone once said "Tradition is the living faith of the dead. Traditionalism is the dead faith of the living." So where do we strike a balance? While I owe much to those who have gone before or those with whom I work now, where do we have a meeting of the minds? As the emerging church starts moving into the Army (I see this coming fast) how do we keep ourselves from being in constant, bitter conflict? Although I do not doubt the godliness of many of my mentors and colleagues, I find myself and many others as so different. Is it possible for us all to be godly and committed, but godly in a different way?
What do you think?
posted by Larry at 12:25 PM
14 Comments:
I think that quote is gold! : )
I’ve also been thinking about this lately. Actually, who am I kidding, I think about this all the time. And I thought about it again today at church. There’s this man who tends the flower gardens at our church on Sundays. It never fails. I walk to church on a Sunday, and there he is, cleaning up the flower gardens.
Now, what I’m about to say will be construed, by more than a few, to be extremely judgemental and also a wide generalization. Fine, it probably is. But one of the differences I see in the older generations, compared to the younger generations, is that we seem to have a different definition of what it means to serve God. For the older generation, serving God often simply means serving the church. So for this man, cleaning out the flower garden is serving God. But for younger generations, we look at that and think, “What a waste of time. There are so many needs in the world. And this guy is wasting his time and money on flowers in the church flower garden. He could be out serving God.”
For the record, and as a disclaimer, I know plenty of older people who are out serving God, and plenty of younger people who think going to church (let alone serving it) is serving God. But, among the radical Christians I know, the above generalization seems to be fairly on the money.
As usual, Larry, you've raised an important thought to wrestle with. Some of my random thoughts: I am drawn to the emergent church, and recognize the importance of relationships as essential to the development of the community of believers. But then what to do with the "program" structure? As we exist now as the Salvation Army, the bulk of our funding comes from appeals that support program - feeding and housing, some youth work, etc. Our corps program review wants to count the number of activities and the number of participants. As a newly appointed corps officer (again!!!), I am wondering where to go as we look to the future. Does it have to be either/or, or can it be both/and? What if I don't have 52 Sunday night salvation meetings during the next year? Is it possible that instead, people will come to Jesus as they come in contact with those who love him in the context of the Salvation Army in Ashland, perhaps even without attending a "meeting' or kneeling at a mercy seat?
When I look at the Solomon's Porch approach as outlined in Reimagining Spiritual Formation, their week includes worship, physicality, dialogue, hospitality, belief, creativity, and service. Some is structured as a weekly "program," and other parts of it is less formalized.
Those are all components of what I envision for our "community" here. It simply may look differently from Solomon's Porch or Montclair, NJ.
When I think of the families we've worked among over the years, I recognize that many of them are badly in need of structure, because their lives are pretty chaotic. So in a sense, scheduled "program" is of benefit, because it teaches ways to find structure.
As for the "godly and committed" question, yes, we can walk different paths. Jesus railed against those who thought that they had the corner on what it meant to be godly. Matthew 23 convicts me anytime I think that my behavior or way of thinking is "the" way. The narrower my thinking, the more surprised I will be at those who will be in the great cloud of witnesses when it's time for heaven.
I agree with Tim that for older generations, serving God means serving the church.
I believe that part of being “godly” means that we steadily grow personally and spiritually. “Godliness” can be different as we each grow in different areas. But when we stop growing we stagnate and cease to be where God desires us to be.
Blessings,
Bret
What is the definition of a "radical christian"? I'm simply trying to understand. Some of those old timers that Larry speaks of where pretty radical in their day.
This may be overly simplistic, but...
As I read the gospels and see who the people are that Jesus spent His time with - poor, prostitutes, social misfits, social "trash", I ask myself, "How do we, Jesus disciples, honor the ministry He has given us if we have failed ot reach the very people He did?
I call them Jesus' old friends - again, perhaps simplistic. BUt noone cares for the people on the fringe as they should in this "church"-culture and the prime example is that we will quickly defend how much we love - them.
We, The Salvation Army - are no longer a force associated with the poor. We are associated with the rich and the middle-class and everyone appreciates us for our ministry to -them. Blue is right- they were radical in how they reahced out in their day - but a new day is here.
Jesus old friends need a visit from their Savior - and He longs to go to them with our feet, and minister to them with our hands, and love them with his heart (which is intertwined with ours).
Bottom line - Jesus is the lost and least and our unwillingness to be associated with and connected to -them- may run parallel to our unwillingness to be associated and connected to the real Jesus if we refuse to take up our cross and follow Him to the poor and the fringe.
HS,
I think my program issue is with the "have to" mindset. This leaves no opportunity for localization and is utilitarian in nature. I think utilitarianism is what I find as difficult.
I also was somewhat taken aback by the comment regarding "good people." Aren't all the people capable of being good through Jesus?
blue,
Yes some of the old timers were radical in their day. But radicals often turn to conservatives if they find that one way is the only way. Unfortunately, recalcitrence to change and believing that one way is the best way takes the radical edge off people. To quote Shane Claibourne we need more "ordinary radicals."
I know you will tell me if I have misunderstood here or not. We are blessed to have several retired Officers at our Corps. A couple of which are pretty active despite their age. One stands (ministers) kettles at Christmas outside at WalMart the other is a Home League member, does many programs and is still, in reality in full ministry. Both are active in our Vacation Bible School. While they both are extreemly old school they both connect to the young youth as well as the young adults. They are both pretty "conservative". The thought occurred to me that it's not about being a "radical christian" in todays world, nor a "liberal christian" but simply a follower and proclaimer of the gospel, "christian". When I witnessed this 74 something year old retired Officer connecting with the youth I realized that it's about sharing the love of the Lord. That is what breaks down the barriers. Could it be that those of us who are "Younger Christians" gave up on the things that in reality did work simply because we don't like the demands?
It's still about building a relationship no matter how you program it.
How many Majors does it take to change a light bulb? Four. One to change it and three to talk about how much liked the old one better! : )
I figured as much....
We forget so easily.
Blue,
It is about relationship. That is my point exactly. It is when we forget the relationship part and hang our hats on "program" and the way we have always done it that we run into a problem.
Tim,
I'm a Major. Does that mean I like old things?
Larry,
I posted it specifically for your benefit! : )
So maybe it's not so much the same old program as it is the person who is performing the program.
Maybe the sleeping giant needs to wake up.
Personal holiness defines so many boundaries and puts two elements into play. A microscope to examine the details of why and the telescope to capture the breadth of the vision of the capacity of working with God.. "Christ in Me, the hope of glory" is played out in so many different fashions.
Feel comfortable in your skin, you are the only one in there. You are the only one who gets to be you today, walk where you walk, touch and reach out to others - unlike anyone else ever could.
God wants to use you, struggling, chafing, balancing, reaching out, reaching in, moving, scraping - and His work through you will always be Godly in a different way.
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