Prayer and fasting or Physicians and Robots?
Today, one of my spiritual mentors had surgery. Everything went well. The doctors are pleased with the surgery itself. The recovery time will still take a while.
People have been praying for months for this day. People fasted and prayed today for my friend. I also know that a very skillful surgeon performed magnificently in this case. He did the surgery with a robotic device. I am told that the recovery time will be cut dramatically by this procedure.
I believe that all healing comes from God. I believe whether through supernatural means or through the hands of a physician, God does what is necessary when He heals.
I struggle though with those who have what I call hyper-faith. It is the type of faith which discounts any type of natural intervention being used by God and always looks to the supernatural.
This type of faith goes way beyond healing and goes to finances and other issues. In fact, these are the same people who not only have hyper-faith, but also tend to wrap it in the flag. I did have someone once tell me that my faith and my wealth went together. I guess we should tell that to the very faithful Christians in China, Darfur and Pakistan, to name a few places.
I do have faith. I have even seen miraculous answers to prayer. I have a couple of great stories I can stick in here but you would get bored (especially if you have Adult ADHD like me). I do get a little worried by the "Name it. Claim it." crowd who think that by our shear faith that we can have anything we want.
I do believe, however, as we become more obedient to God, our requests become more in line with His will and therefore, are more likely to be answered. We become in-tune with Him and our desires are more like His and we become less selfish and more selfless.
I have also had someone recently tell me that they had someone lay hands on them and an unhealthy attitude was removed. My question really is, "So was this their prayer or your desire?" I think it has to do more with my friend's desire than the specific prayer prayed over him.
I know some of you will come back with that great OT verse "Some trust in chariots and horses, but we trust in the Lord." This is true. Yet, don't you think if God could use a donkey to deliver a prophecy, He could use a robot to deliver us from illness? Don't you think that our obedience in holiness is what really triggers answers to prayers and not just faith?
Well, I am rejoicing that my friend, leader and mentor is on the road to his healing. I do hope that you will not see my blog as a lack of faith, but a realistic look at what it means to be faithful.
So what about prayer and fasting (which I believe in, by the way) and physicians and robots. Where do you stand on this issue of faith and obedience? Do you believe in a "Name it. Claim it." theology? Do you believe that it is our obedience that leads us to pray in concert with the will of God. Or do you believe there is another way? As always I would be interested in knowing....
What do you think?
People have been praying for months for this day. People fasted and prayed today for my friend. I also know that a very skillful surgeon performed magnificently in this case. He did the surgery with a robotic device. I am told that the recovery time will be cut dramatically by this procedure.
I believe that all healing comes from God. I believe whether through supernatural means or through the hands of a physician, God does what is necessary when He heals.
I struggle though with those who have what I call hyper-faith. It is the type of faith which discounts any type of natural intervention being used by God and always looks to the supernatural.
This type of faith goes way beyond healing and goes to finances and other issues. In fact, these are the same people who not only have hyper-faith, but also tend to wrap it in the flag. I did have someone once tell me that my faith and my wealth went together. I guess we should tell that to the very faithful Christians in China, Darfur and Pakistan, to name a few places.
I do have faith. I have even seen miraculous answers to prayer. I have a couple of great stories I can stick in here but you would get bored (especially if you have Adult ADHD like me). I do get a little worried by the "Name it. Claim it." crowd who think that by our shear faith that we can have anything we want.
I do believe, however, as we become more obedient to God, our requests become more in line with His will and therefore, are more likely to be answered. We become in-tune with Him and our desires are more like His and we become less selfish and more selfless.
I have also had someone recently tell me that they had someone lay hands on them and an unhealthy attitude was removed. My question really is, "So was this their prayer or your desire?" I think it has to do more with my friend's desire than the specific prayer prayed over him.
I know some of you will come back with that great OT verse "Some trust in chariots and horses, but we trust in the Lord." This is true. Yet, don't you think if God could use a donkey to deliver a prophecy, He could use a robot to deliver us from illness? Don't you think that our obedience in holiness is what really triggers answers to prayers and not just faith?
Well, I am rejoicing that my friend, leader and mentor is on the road to his healing. I do hope that you will not see my blog as a lack of faith, but a realistic look at what it means to be faithful.
So what about prayer and fasting (which I believe in, by the way) and physicians and robots. Where do you stand on this issue of faith and obedience? Do you believe in a "Name it. Claim it." theology? Do you believe that it is our obedience that leads us to pray in concert with the will of God. Or do you believe there is another way? As always I would be interested in knowing....
What do you think?
posted by Larry at 2:45 PM
10 Comments:
Every once in a while you nail a topic that I’ve also been pondering. This is one of them.
Let me add more fuel to the debate. If God is prepared to intercede just because we ask him, then where does free will come in? I mean, doesn’t free will (the laws of the universe that God set up) pretty much dictate God not stepping in???
Won't it be great when the questions are over ? As much as I like the thoughts of "out there" -- I'm afraid my faith is very strong in the reality corner. And reality for me is the actual Presence of God in any way He so sees -- within and without MY understanding. I will pray for your mentor!!
Tim,
I think that view may be a bit deterministic. I do see passages in scripture, as with Moses praying on behalf of Lot that intercession worked to a degree. I think the prayer of Moses was so effective because of his relationship. He was a friend of God.
Vicki,
I think the struggle and the journey with questions are what God wants. I think if we never struggle and never ask questions, our faith is embedded and not embraced. I don't know about you, but I have about 1000 different questions I want to ask God when I get to heaven.
Well you've done it again. As I was talking to this guy who comes to our Corps on Sunday about the healing ministry and the prosperity gospel. Like you I have a hard time saying that beacuse we are blessed with posseions and great health our faith is week.
I was in Bible study and the question waqs posed what is God's grace was all we had in our life? He tells us over and over in His Word that His grace is sufficent for us. So we have to ask ourself what if God's grace is all we have, like Job, all he had was God's grace.
Healing is God's work. If He choses to use a human or a robot as an instrument of healing so be it. Heck if he uses your dog to lick an infected wound so be it, just kidding but not really. Like Mr. Gump, "That's all I have to say about that."
A good book about all of this is Brennan Mannings "Ruthless Trust", if you haven't read it do so it is a great book.
Ok, so when we make faith all about us and what we do, we miss the picture. Faith is not about us, it's about God and His track record. So many get discouraged because they didn't have "enough" faith...wow, what a claim. I believe we need to have right motives and not feel that God needs to "prove" Himself (um, something about not testing the Lord your God). God's will is for us to be holy. Period. What specific shape that will take depends on the journey we find ourselves when we find Him. I look forward to reading some other insights to this question.
Nicole,
I think your view is a bit deterministic as well. Unless I am reading what you say wrong, we should not express our desires to God. Doesn't faithfulness count for us too. Holiness is God's desire for us. I do think He is concerned about our wants and needs, emotionally, physically and spiritually. Otherwise, don't you think we would have been made without emotion. How could we love Him otherwise? Shouldn't we want to love God. I think your argument that faith is about God and His track recrd is not fully developed. Sure He is faithful, but doesn't He set an example for how we ought to respond? So to some degree it is about us too.
Ok, so I didn't write all I wanted to...after reading it, I left a bit out. I'm not saying we have NO part to play but oftentimes we give OURSELVES too much power, determining God's will and direction. I just think when we make it more about what we bring and less about who God is we tend to put Him in our box. I have no clue what to pray for at times when situations make no sense in my mind and heart, I just have to know that in the end God has a perfect plan. Do I walk around on a holy high horse because I'm at peace with a situation...no, sometimes though I am persecuted for "not having the faith" to believe a miracle will happen (I believe it, but as you've written sometimes it doesn't happen...is that my fault for not believing enough?? Some would say yes--even some in the Army). So, as a response to the hyper-faith experience, that is when I say...stop making it all about you! I know what my children want at ages 6 and 2...because it's simple, but when we grow (mature) in our relationship with the Lord we make it at times a little more complex. In order to come to some understanding of what God wants for me or a situation sometimes means I have to think of Jeremiah and knowing He knows the plans...never to harm, for a hope and a future. Does this mean I have no choice but to go that way? No, but that means it makes it that more difficult to "get it" if I'm facing the opposite direction.
Hi, I don't have a lot to say just now because of my impending journey. The reason I chimed in is because of a sermon I heard on the radio this morning from Adrian Rogers. He said, I will not follow the Lord Jesus because he promises healing. I follow because of who he is. Perhaps that is why some are healed and some are not. Many would follow based on miracles alone.
My grace is sufficient. If Paul was not healed of the thorn in his side. Why should we expect some worthiness/faithfulness on our part to precipitate healing in us?
Jesus is our sufficiency.
And glad/thankful he has given doctors the tools to keep the saints going.
I have found that the more of my life I have devoted to being shaped by God, He has done just that. He has shaped my heart and its desires, my reactions and my responses. Changed my personality...no, but you write "Our obedience leads us to pray in concert with the will of God"...yes. I consider this has been my experience. God shows me a glimpse of how and where He is working, not me demanding His presence and requiring His fulfillment to my explicit timing and details.
I find the healing touch of physicians and nurses, their use of technology and medication, to be a healing art, a ministry deep and wide. Healing comes from God, and there are several highly skilled, dedicated, devoted, amazing people who have involved their life in transferring this healing touch. It is supernatural to know that a man or a woman can know exactly which blood vessel needs attention, which surgical technique will be decisive and quickest healing, how much time is required to remove a tumor, which medical conditions can be anticipated and avoided because of advance knowledge and predictable symptoms. DOCTORS CAN BE AMAZING.
The stamina, intelligence and energy required to be involved in healing should not be seen as exclusively human effort. Let alone that the sight of blood and innards doesn't make them sick, weak in the knees or pass out.
And robotics - how cool is that!
I do not consider that trusting a doctor staff and the nursing team involved requires any less amount of faith than praying the section of the prayer the Lord Jesus taught His disciples..."Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
The most complicated area of the whole issue...are you willing to trust?
I saw your name on the educational trip. Looking forward to some good good conversations.
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