Going to Hell?
Yesterday, I finished up with the Urban Forum in Cleveland. It was a terrific experience. People from Europe and North America, who are concerned for and work with the poor attended. It was a great time of networking, fellowship, worship (thanks to my man Matt Frye, my dear friend Sandra Ryan and that kickin' group Progeny) and thought-provoking discussion. God was there.
I made new friends and renewed old friendships. One of those with whom I renewed friendship was the speaker for the last two sessions of the forum. He shared his spiritual journey and some of the questions he is walking through with the concept of grace and Hell. He is very much in the universalist camp. Although, he does contend that Hell is real. (I believe Hell is real.) He believes God created that place so that He could fulfill the justice part of His character. My friend contends that people will go there if the consciously continue to reject God. I tend, in my thinking, to lean that way.
I do not believe that Jesus led anyone in the "Sinners' Prayer." Even though James and John speak of confession, they were essentially writing to people who had already made a commitment to follow Jesus as their pattern for life. No doubt, these were people who carried their flaws, just as you and I do. They probably never said the "Sinners' Prayer." They probably were baptized as their initiation into the church.
My friend was very open that he believes that people whose lives are not miraculously changed, who suffer due to no fault of their own, or find themselves in addictions they can't lick, even good Hindus (Gandhi) and Muslims will go to heaven. I tend to agree.
This is not to say that miracles can't happen. They do. they just don't happen that often. That is why they are called miracles.
It is also not to say that we should stop telling people of Jesus and His way. I want people to know Jesus so that they can at least find some escape from hell here on earth.
A novel thought came out of the second session of his talks. That there may be a chance for people to be saved out of hell. The idea was put forward that the God of justice would send those who reject Him consciously to Hell. Yet, at the same time, we who believe in the "immortality of the soul" would still have opportunity to cry out for forgiveness. I am not sure where that leaves us in the story of Lazarus the beggar found in the gospels.
As we were discussing these things, a man who was going through one of our programs, who had accepted Jesus, was seriously trying to change his life, relapsed. That night he died. I wonder, did he go to Hell? I am not so sure that this man did.
He could be like Mephibosheth, the cripple who ate at David's table. He deserved to die. He would never be healed. He found the King's favor and mercy even though, he should have died and did nothing to ask forgiveness.
I think all too often our modern, utilitarian mind-set that one size fits all, causes us to become judgemental and hold people to standards, God does not set at all. We set our interpretation of Scripture up as the only valid one. Our statement of faith is often less theological, than it is core value in nature.
So as I journey through this latest thought process I need some help. Is Hell real? Will mercy overcome at the end? Revelation and other scripture seems to indicate that it is so. Should we lose hope since we don't always see miracles?
I have a ton of other questions to ask. I would be happy to hear from you with well-thought out questions and comments. Don't be defensive but engage cordially.
What do you think?
I made new friends and renewed old friendships. One of those with whom I renewed friendship was the speaker for the last two sessions of the forum. He shared his spiritual journey and some of the questions he is walking through with the concept of grace and Hell. He is very much in the universalist camp. Although, he does contend that Hell is real. (I believe Hell is real.) He believes God created that place so that He could fulfill the justice part of His character. My friend contends that people will go there if the consciously continue to reject God. I tend, in my thinking, to lean that way.
I do not believe that Jesus led anyone in the "Sinners' Prayer." Even though James and John speak of confession, they were essentially writing to people who had already made a commitment to follow Jesus as their pattern for life. No doubt, these were people who carried their flaws, just as you and I do. They probably never said the "Sinners' Prayer." They probably were baptized as their initiation into the church.
My friend was very open that he believes that people whose lives are not miraculously changed, who suffer due to no fault of their own, or find themselves in addictions they can't lick, even good Hindus (Gandhi) and Muslims will go to heaven. I tend to agree.
This is not to say that miracles can't happen. They do. they just don't happen that often. That is why they are called miracles.
It is also not to say that we should stop telling people of Jesus and His way. I want people to know Jesus so that they can at least find some escape from hell here on earth.
A novel thought came out of the second session of his talks. That there may be a chance for people to be saved out of hell. The idea was put forward that the God of justice would send those who reject Him consciously to Hell. Yet, at the same time, we who believe in the "immortality of the soul" would still have opportunity to cry out for forgiveness. I am not sure where that leaves us in the story of Lazarus the beggar found in the gospels.
As we were discussing these things, a man who was going through one of our programs, who had accepted Jesus, was seriously trying to change his life, relapsed. That night he died. I wonder, did he go to Hell? I am not so sure that this man did.
He could be like Mephibosheth, the cripple who ate at David's table. He deserved to die. He would never be healed. He found the King's favor and mercy even though, he should have died and did nothing to ask forgiveness.
I think all too often our modern, utilitarian mind-set that one size fits all, causes us to become judgemental and hold people to standards, God does not set at all. We set our interpretation of Scripture up as the only valid one. Our statement of faith is often less theological, than it is core value in nature.
So as I journey through this latest thought process I need some help. Is Hell real? Will mercy overcome at the end? Revelation and other scripture seems to indicate that it is so. Should we lose hope since we don't always see miracles?
I have a ton of other questions to ask. I would be happy to hear from you with well-thought out questions and comments. Don't be defensive but engage cordially.
What do you think?
posted by Larry at 11:36 AM
2 Comments:
when i rejected God and cursed him at what I thought were the last moments of my life, he saved me. I tend to be of the 'God died for all' theory. But I do believe that he will bring all men, women to the place where they have no other choice. It's a relief when it comes.
clarification, and it seems you need a few more comments. Where did everyone go Larry? I wanted to say that I didn't curse God in those last moments, but cursed my life. Which seems to be almost the same thing when crying out to the Creator of that life. The other thought I had after writing the above comment was that Hell is also a place that exists here. Which is where I was when He came for me. So the idea that God fetches us from Hell my not be that far fetched. Albeit the scripture about Lazarus and the rich ruler is often used as hell being the endgame.
Then is the scripture that Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Does it not say that to confess Jesus as Lord as the key to heaven? So what does every tongue confess mean exactly? Asking? Anyone? Class?
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