A new wind?
Well friends, I know that some of you will ask about how Janet and I viewed our choice opportunity to share with the members of the Territorial Executive Council. I will do that. I want to thank you all first for your prayers, comments on this blog and the willingness to allow me to quote you. Talk about putting your money (or lack thereof) where your mouth is! Actually, some of the leadership read my blog, so they are taking the journey with us even if they are not commenting.
First of all, we went overtime. Drew was right, we did just get reved up after 30 minutes. I think we actually went almost 40 minutes.
We found most of our leadership to be attentive, respectful and seemingly willing to wrestle with this issue of emerging Christian Sprituality. I thought we pushed a couple of buttons that may have offended people, but were pleasantly surprised that many of the people saw what we have been talking about for the last several years.
We got the usual thumbs up, "Nice job," "Thanks friends," and "That was great." Those responses were affirming! One of the members commented that we had, "delivered the Word of The Lord for the group this day." Wow, was I humbled!
I think that the most affirming remarks were, "You have caused me to think," or "Now I understand a bit better why people are not responding the way they used to," or "Now I know why my kids think this way." Our job was not to tell people what to think, but rather to get them to start to take the journey.
The best part of my day was having our friends, Mark and Sharon Tillsley pray over us at the end of our presentation. We love and respect those two more than you would know.
We left the TEC with a bundle of reading. We knew we could only scratch the surface of what we needed to share about this important new wind that is blowing through the church. I am convinced many of the leaders will take time to interact with the material. Who knows what will happen as the Spirit speaks to them! Well, God does!
So where do we go from here emergents? I believe it is time for many of us to put legs to our voices. We cannot lead a rebellion, but we can be part of a radical revolution! Even if others do not want to be part of this movement, we need to be faithful to the voice of God.
We need to network. Commune often with each other through blogs, emails, phone calls and when we can face to face time. We need to PRAY. Then we need to continue to push into the heart of The Father on this matter. In short, we need to begin to emerge as an Army and not blame leaders for our lack of faith. It may not come quickly, but if this is of God, as many of us believe it is, this conversation will push forward!!!!!!
Here are the questions for the day. What can we do to open the sails on this ship we call The Salvation Army so the wind of The Spirit will move us where we need to go? What are some really practical (and may I add here, not whiny,) positive steps we can take to advance the Revolution? Will we be willing to throw caution to this new wind? How do you think we can best encourage our leadership to take this journey with us? Will we just be cynical and say, "I'm glad Larry thought it went well?" Or will we push the envelope and the agenda from the grass roots?
If this sounds like a cheesy altar call, maybe it is. I think of it as a call to faithfulness to me! If I am going to ask the questions, I need to try to find some answers with you. So, comment if you will.
What do you think?
First of all, we went overtime. Drew was right, we did just get reved up after 30 minutes. I think we actually went almost 40 minutes.
We found most of our leadership to be attentive, respectful and seemingly willing to wrestle with this issue of emerging Christian Sprituality. I thought we pushed a couple of buttons that may have offended people, but were pleasantly surprised that many of the people saw what we have been talking about for the last several years.
We got the usual thumbs up, "Nice job," "Thanks friends," and "That was great." Those responses were affirming! One of the members commented that we had, "delivered the Word of The Lord for the group this day." Wow, was I humbled!
I think that the most affirming remarks were, "You have caused me to think," or "Now I understand a bit better why people are not responding the way they used to," or "Now I know why my kids think this way." Our job was not to tell people what to think, but rather to get them to start to take the journey.
The best part of my day was having our friends, Mark and Sharon Tillsley pray over us at the end of our presentation. We love and respect those two more than you would know.
We left the TEC with a bundle of reading. We knew we could only scratch the surface of what we needed to share about this important new wind that is blowing through the church. I am convinced many of the leaders will take time to interact with the material. Who knows what will happen as the Spirit speaks to them! Well, God does!
So where do we go from here emergents? I believe it is time for many of us to put legs to our voices. We cannot lead a rebellion, but we can be part of a radical revolution! Even if others do not want to be part of this movement, we need to be faithful to the voice of God.
We need to network. Commune often with each other through blogs, emails, phone calls and when we can face to face time. We need to PRAY. Then we need to continue to push into the heart of The Father on this matter. In short, we need to begin to emerge as an Army and not blame leaders for our lack of faith. It may not come quickly, but if this is of God, as many of us believe it is, this conversation will push forward!!!!!!
Here are the questions for the day. What can we do to open the sails on this ship we call The Salvation Army so the wind of The Spirit will move us where we need to go? What are some really practical (and may I add here, not whiny,) positive steps we can take to advance the Revolution? Will we be willing to throw caution to this new wind? How do you think we can best encourage our leadership to take this journey with us? Will we just be cynical and say, "I'm glad Larry thought it went well?" Or will we push the envelope and the agenda from the grass roots?
If this sounds like a cheesy altar call, maybe it is. I think of it as a call to faithfulness to me! If I am going to ask the questions, I need to try to find some answers with you. So, comment if you will.
What do you think?
posted by Larry at 11:36 PM
27 Comments:
Ooooh... I wonder if you'll get the usual number of replies to THIS question... :-)
I am thinking about the question, by the way... just not quite ready to venture an answer.
I love it when a DC has kids. It’s always a little easier for him/her to admit that what we’re doing now might not be working too well because they often have their own children’s lack of involvement to draw on.
I want to say again that we have to do our parts. As far as the “who can lead this” argument, I don’t rest on either side of the fence, I rest right in the middle. I don’t think that we (at the “bottom”) can do it on our own, and I don’t think those at the “top” can do it on theirs either. But, from experience, I do know that those at the top are keen to jump on board things that are working.
I my own experience with the Army, I too have wrestled with the negativity that often surrounds ideas for change. And I too have used that as an excuse to sit on my butt, claiming that “if somebody would just give me permission, help, and resources, I would do something!” But, in two cases, and against many people’s better wishes, I decided that I was going to do something. And I did. And, a year later, when these two things became successful and were being talked about around the division (and in one case, the territory) my division not only jumped on board, and not only decided to help fund them, but also claimed that they were in support of them all along. : ) And that’s fine!
I share that not to belittle leadership. I share that to say that our excuses are, in many cases, just excuses. Leaders lead. Pioneers blaze new trails (which means clearing out a lot of brush). Whiners whine and spend their lives looking for something else to whine about.
Something else that I finally realized a couple of years ago was that, in many cases, our leadership are doing what they know to do. Asking your 50 year old, born and bred, brass playing, Sallie Officer, to start leading some modern worship on guitar is pretty ridiculous. I think that many of our CO’s feel helpless when it comes to a more modern worship service. They just don’t know how. In my own case, as a nineteen year old youth minister (a couple of years ago: ) who was desperate for more modern worship for my young people, I didn’t ask the worship minister to learn how to play guitar, I learned it myself. And I started leading it a little at a time.
I truly believe that many of the things we are asking for, we are completely capable (and most likely called) to lead ourselves. WE are the body of Christ! WE are given spiritual gifts! And WE can learn how to do new things! Go take a class. Go attend a workshop. Stop worrying that your friends won’t want to attend the Sunday service, start a cell group and invite them to that! What if that cell group turns into a Saturday night young adult worship service? Do you think that your Corps Officer is going to say, “Sorry. If it’s not taking place on Sunday morning, you can’t have it here in the building”? Are you crazy? The CO will probably start attending himself! We have some bad CO’s in the Army, it’s true. But I truly believe that the majority of our CO’s want good things for their people, they just don’t often know (or have the time) to lead them.
SO LET’S GET OFF OUR BUTTS (not the word I wanted to use), GET THE TRAINING WE NEED (if we indeed, need it), AND START DOING THE THINGS WE BELIEVE ARE NEEDED DONE!
I can happen! And, where people have stopped whining about it and have just started doing it, it’s happening! From the ground up! One step at a time!
Go start a cell group people!!! : )
Towards the end of your blog i started to hear "Come Just As You Are" in my head... :o)
But anyway, I think the first thing we have to realize, or come to grips with, are we still a Movement? And if so, what is the definition of the term "movement"? What does that mean for us. I think we are a Movement, or need to become one again in some places.
One of my favorite movies is "Remember the Titans". During one of their pre-season camp drills you hear them chanting, "We are mobile, agile, hostile"...I believe that's what we need to be. I first posted a blog on this back in October '04 and reposted the other day after all the discussion on this blog and others.
I think the Emerging Church will look a little different in every town, but we need to try. I agree with Tim...learn, train, just get off our butts and try something.
In His Grip,
Dave
Dave,
The church should never be hostile. We should be strong and non-apologetic. Hostility is what we are dealing with in this paradigm. We are hostile toward people who are different. We are hostile toward any other kinds of traditions. Our hostility has chased people away.
Strong, yes. Hostile?
Tim,
Thanks for your comments. Your portrayal of the white 50 year old hurts man! I am almost there.
By the way, I used one of your quotes from one of my earlier posts. It was on liquid church. It was met with interest and a sense of sadness. Interest because of the strength of your words. Sadness, because your experience was something many of them identified with. You said something about showing up to a meeting so people would not question your faith and politely waiting until it was over.
Many of those gathered, I think, saw this in their children. Thanks for adding to the process yesterday.
Tim speaks well here, and I'm glad he said it because I don't think a CO could without sounding like a lazy, condescending *&%#$@#$^*.
That said, it doesn't get more "grassroots" in officership that Corps Offciership. We have a responsibility to know people, to understand community, and be sensitive to the Spirit's leading. To some people these things come naturally. For the rest of us, we have to work very hard to develop these sensitivities, but it's worth it and, quite frankly, a necessity.
I don't think I will ever believe the uniform is a bad idea. I love playing my cornet and as long as there are 2 or 3 others, I'll want to play. But I also want the Spirit of God to direct me in my little corner of the world so that he continues to use us to make disciples, grow saints, & serve suffering humanity.
"I give my heart, I will do my part."
I didn't mean hostile in that way...it's just part of the quote...meant it more as aggressive and powerful...pushing forward.
Dave
natr...
not sure on the notes...if they were taken, they would be private.
there were several people writing and underscoring some of the material we gave out.
that is all i can say at this point
eddy,
you are right. It is not about worship, being cool or hip. It is mostly about a willingness to share power, be vulnerable, and be authentically like Jesus.
There is some deep thinking that needs to be done. We need to conciously acknowledge a sinful pattern (exlusivism, power grabbing, pride etc.) Once it is acknowledged then, we need to act on it. The issue is, I don't think over the last several years we have thought about relationships,or sinfulness.
We have programmed and often tried to be formulaic in our approach to church.
how irritating is this: i just wrote this really great comment and then lost it...give me a few minutes and i'll get it all back together
ugh
Eddy -
Speaking as a CO, I didn't get the vibe you got from Tim's post at all. It was encouraging to me to hear a non-officer suggest taking some of the burden off the CO - not because the CO is incompetent, but because there are others in the Corps who are competent. Not all CO's (or their egos) could handle that system, but it is, in my view, the right one.
One aspect of the emerging church, I think, is being able to count on the pastor for some things, but not all things. The pastor is not the whole team, maybe not even the manager, maybe the player/coach.
I'd better stop. I just got whistled for "overuse of sports analogy."
Eddy,
: ) A DYO in the States might hold some status, but as a non-officer DYO in the UK, I’m just the guy who looks after the youth ministry for the division. Don’t get me wrong, I’m in a great division, with great leaders and great CO’s, but they respect me because they know me, not because I’m the DYO. Rest assured. In addition to all of that, my wife and I have planted a youth project in our neighbourhood. Our vision is to see it become a church some day. So I’m very much at the bottom looking up.
I’m sorry you feel that I painted a broad picture of officers who are ignorant and incapable of leadership. My own CO’s are awesome and I serve in a division full of vibrant, mission minded, radical officers. But, even in the case of my own CO’s, if they were in charge of the music on a Sunday morning, I think it would be fair to say that it might lose some of its appeal. As far as I know, we are still not training our officers in modern worship techniques. So I feel pretty confident in saying that there aren’t a lot out there who can lead it.
But please do not get me wrong and don’t allow this topic to become one about “modern worship vs. traditional worship” because I too think that the music in our Corps is not the top priority nor will changing it (alone) bring in the masses. In fact, as I’ve watched young people in TSA for the last seven years, personal relationships and a sense of ownership are the only explanation I have for why they stay. Unfortunately, a CO only has the ability to have so many personal relationships in the Corps, and then somebody else must step up or the Corps stops growing. Our numbers (or lack thereof) can be attributed to many things, but “the people not stepping up and doing our part” has to rank very high on that list. Very high! In fact, I’d rank it as high as number two.
Finally, it’s funny that you should mention a “stripped down event”. Many of you are familiar with ROOTS and the youth event (called SHOCKING) that accompanies it. This year, alongside the SHOCKING venue, we ran a venue called DEEPER. While shocking has the look and feel of a nightclub (8 huge video screens, three stages, three flat screens, video, and lights and sounds that would make a techi cry) the DEEPER venue had a light bulb, a microphone, a guitar, and a projector. And, as many of us suspected, the feedback we got revolved around the authenticity of the venue, it’s worship, and it’s teaching. Lights, video, and a good band will only take us so far.
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You have all made great comments.
Where do we go from here? We have to just do it. No one manages our every minute. What we do is up to us.
Larry,
I'm glad it all went well. Praise the Lord!
Ok, so I think we can now all agree on something! It is all about being the heart, hands, feet, and mouth of God. All require sensitivity and action on our part. We must be ready, at all times to give testimony (in word and especially action) of what has been done in us through Christ!
Does this take the shape of street evangelism? yes. Does this take the shape of cell groups? yes. Does this take the shape of physical assistance (food, shelter, etc.)? yes. Does this take the shape of teaching children/adults a skill (even if it is youth band)? yes. Does this...I think you get the point. Faith without actions is dead! (hmm sound familiar?) But actions without love as the intention, faith as the foundation, or Spirit as the direction is pointless.
Nicole,
Just curious. What do you mean by the "mouth of God?" Not sure I have ever heard that term.
We need to be as cautious with the words that come out of our mouth as the things we do. Sometimes we're so concerned about the healing "we" can provide through our actions (and we can) that the words that come out are like sewage. If we understand that our words (which come from our mouths) should reflect God's words to His people...we would be more careful with the deadliest weapon..our tongues!
Nicole,
what words? what kind of words? not sure i am following still
Sorry, just thought I'd add...we also need to be careful that we clearly teach the word of God. My commissioning verse was this (and it challenges me daily..as well as many others) "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth".I believe this speaks to our actions and words we share with one another.
"Does this take the shape of street evangelism? yes."
(cringe)
What do you mean by that? I pray to God you don't mean open airs or even street preaching. I have never known or witnessed anybody who came to know God at an open air, through a street preacher, or by the wisdom that can only come through a car bumper sticker. I know that some will point to the early days of TSA, but surely we all realize that we no longer live in that culture. I watched open airs in downtown Pittsburgh for five years. And I watched them turn people off for that entire time.
For me, street evangelism means serving in such a way that you are visible to the outside world, and recognizable as a Christian (Army t-shirt?), but that your actions tell the story. Today's world so doesn't need to hear our thoughts. They know them. What they need is to SEE our beliefs. So go out and clean up a neighborhood, and wear your Army t-shirt while you do. I promise you that you’ll gain much more respect from the community than preaching to them. And I truly believe that, as they see our faith in action, they’ll begin to see in it some of the authenticity that they’ve been looking for.
I know somebody out there is going to be offended by this one. And somebody else will come up with some obscure example of somebody who actually was reached through some sort of street preaching session. And even another who will truly believe that their open air campaign was truly effective. But I truly believe, through too many experiences, that we do more to turn people away from God through this type of ministry than we do to reach them.
Nicole,
Thanks for the clarification. I agree.
Tim,
You are right about the better ways of street evangelism. By cleaning up and serving the neighborhood, we become an Army that has beaten its swords into ploughshares.
Words? Well, are the things we say an encouragement? Are the things we say for the betterment of those who hear? As the living testimony of what God has done for us...do we also speak as though He has touched our tongue too! Or do we gossip, do we tear each other down, do we speak the truth in love or in resentment and bitterness, do we speak words of racism and bigotry instead of God's love and acceptance? This is what I mean by love. We can have the actions right...but one word spoken in hatred or in ignorance toward another and all that work is garbage. Example: I had a CO growing up that did everything with us as teens. But, one day in corps council as an adult said to us..."those people (meaning the poor) are sucking us dry. We've got better things to do!" Wha????? But was on the outside doing all the "social" ministry he could fit on the schedule!
Tim,
I'm talking about not being afraid to go up to someone and talk to them...period. I too think screaming at people from a street corner is counter-productive. We need not be afraid to encounter people where they are. Yes, as the Salvation Army we do have hundreds coming through our door..we need to minister to them as well...but we need to be out in the community. In our summer assignment as cadets there was a park in the city where EVERYONE hung out. You know that by the 2nd week people were waiting to see us so they could talk to us...they saw our uniforms and new we could be trusted. I was able to pray and witness to people that I hear are now coming to the corps (we were only there 3 months). So don't freak and think I mean stand with a sign and tell everyone they're going to hell! We have so often hidden behind our desks or behind the pulpit whining (yes whining) that there isn't anyone to bring into the kingdom. Well, if we open our eyes we will see them, even if it's under a tree in a small park in the town in which we serve.
Oh BTW, we didn't preach...we ate lunch at the park in our uniform. We were polite to people who walked past and introduced ourselves to the "regulars" (just in case you were wondering). We didn't hold a Billy Graham crusade at the park.
In reference to the “mouth of God” discussion. . . .
1 Peter 4:11 says, “If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.”
Tim,
I’m not offended. . . I agree with your open air comments. I have had similar experiences that you had in Pittsburg.
Blessings,
Bret
Larry,
Hey there! I just wrote the following in my blog and it went along with where you were going a bit...
let me know what you think!
Tara
_____________________________________________
I had the opportunity to go to a "Leadership Retreat" over night at my church's camp, and my husband and I decided to atted and give it a shot. After a difficult experience (that was ever to long to tell and isn't really worth your time to read), over a year ago - it was refreshing to go to an event where the purpose was to bring "Everyone" to the table to discuss the effectiveness, policy and future of our denomination.
Many opinions were stated, ideas and perspectives were varied, but the best result I feel was the feeling that everyone could be open and share constructive criticism as well as positive affirmations. We all had a say, we all listened to each other and I felt my heart leap as I felt heard and that I was hearing others for the first time in a long time! I got excited about our future as a church again, at least in a way that I haven't felt for a while.
All ages and generations were represented. Including: Pastors, staff, members, headquarters leaders, black, white, hispanic, elderly, young adults, middle aged adults and teens.
The playing field was leveled - and it felt good to be a part of it all.
I've always felt that the only way to fix problems, and plan for progress is to get everyone to the table and start to talk to each other face-to-face. We'll be on our way to healthier churches, pastors and members if we continue on this path.
I've got my walking shoes on and I'm ready. Are you?
It seems to me that as fruitless as it may seem to many the Open Air meetings are more than just inane, unintelligable bumper stickers. Though some may not have witnessed someone come to know the Lord through this type of ministry I personally have. I spent time in Pittsburgh myself at the Open Air meetings. It's funny how many officers staff of the Army and soldiers would stand and listen in our little navyblue circles without engaging the people around us.
To poopoo the word going out within any venue when the heart is right seems a bit critical. It doesn't work I guess. I won't bore you with any of the true victories that I have witnessed via the open air because from the tone of a few posts I would be talking to a deaf ear.
Change is good. But sometimes just a little tweeking might just do the trick.
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