To preach or not to preach?
I stole this title from an article by Gary Goodell. In the article, he discusses the issue of pastor dominated worship and teaching. He, like me asserts the need for teaching Scripture and Kerygma (preaching). I in no way want to down play the need for Bible-based preaching or teaching.
I think the issue I am beginning to struggle with is "movie style" church. This is where the pastor schedules, leads and really dominates the worship gathering in the church. The people tend to sit and watch, sort of engaging.
Dan Kimball asserts a truth and then asks a question, "Preaching is only one, small part of being a pastor. Could we subtly be teaching church attendees not how to feed themselves from the Word of God, but to become dependent on the 'greatest' preachers?"
This struggle has been working in me for years. I think it started when I heard that a Salvation Army officer had won a preaching contest. Huh? Is that really godly? I don't know. I am glad that the officer was such a skilled orator and devoted servant of the Lord. I don't mean to knock her skill. I am just having a hard time getting my head around a preaching contest. Does that trivialize preaching somehow?
This prompted me to state to some of my fellow officers in a meeting, "I think preaching is over-rated." I think I am still patching holes that were stared through me that day.
One of my fellow officers (I respect this person and the knowledge they bring more than you would know.) stated, "Our people have not been fed for years by preaching in our corps. So we need to teach the cadets more preaching. I think we teach too much theology." I disagreed.
Shouldn't we have more time to wrestle with theological issues? I have met too many people who have embedded faith and who have never really embraced their faith. Many of my friends can spit out the latest, Joel Osteen (name your preacher here _________) theology, which tends to not be scriptural. Why is this?
I contend the church in general has been let off the hook. You can sit through the three points and a poem and escape without really having to interact with the Word, no matter how carefully and prayerfully the preacher has prepared.
One of my friends said to me recently, "I hate going to my cell group. They never let me give the pat answer. They make me think."
I contend people want to be involved. They want to wrestle, debate and really engage the Word. Your experience may be that many will keep quiet in cell ministry. I think that is because most grew up in pastor dominated churches. Once the quiet ones open up, watch out!
I think you know I see pastors, officers and priests as shepherds, leading from behind. I don't believe that we are the repositories of all knowledge. For us to think that we have a lock on truth and that we are responsible to feed our people, instead of guiding them to the feeding ground and then eating with them (how's that for metaphor?) may well be extra-biblical. After all, don't we believe in the priesthood of all believers?
I think the current model may reinforce some bad habits. Yes, I think preaching is important. I really respect preachers. I am one!!!!! Maybe though we need to look to a new model that still keeps the Word central to all we do.
Here are the questions:
Is preaching over-rated? Are there better ways to engage the Word? Would we be better to be more communal to our approach to learning? Should we have more theology or preaching taught in our seminaries and training schools? Are pastors/officers specially gifted, because they are called to teach and preach? Last question. Should there have been a preaching contest?
I am struggling with this. Honestly, I am really struggling.
What do you think?
I think the issue I am beginning to struggle with is "movie style" church. This is where the pastor schedules, leads and really dominates the worship gathering in the church. The people tend to sit and watch, sort of engaging.
Dan Kimball asserts a truth and then asks a question, "Preaching is only one, small part of being a pastor. Could we subtly be teaching church attendees not how to feed themselves from the Word of God, but to become dependent on the 'greatest' preachers?"
This struggle has been working in me for years. I think it started when I heard that a Salvation Army officer had won a preaching contest. Huh? Is that really godly? I don't know. I am glad that the officer was such a skilled orator and devoted servant of the Lord. I don't mean to knock her skill. I am just having a hard time getting my head around a preaching contest. Does that trivialize preaching somehow?
This prompted me to state to some of my fellow officers in a meeting, "I think preaching is over-rated." I think I am still patching holes that were stared through me that day.
One of my fellow officers (I respect this person and the knowledge they bring more than you would know.) stated, "Our people have not been fed for years by preaching in our corps. So we need to teach the cadets more preaching. I think we teach too much theology." I disagreed.
Shouldn't we have more time to wrestle with theological issues? I have met too many people who have embedded faith and who have never really embraced their faith. Many of my friends can spit out the latest, Joel Osteen (name your preacher here _________) theology, which tends to not be scriptural. Why is this?
I contend the church in general has been let off the hook. You can sit through the three points and a poem and escape without really having to interact with the Word, no matter how carefully and prayerfully the preacher has prepared.
One of my friends said to me recently, "I hate going to my cell group. They never let me give the pat answer. They make me think."
I contend people want to be involved. They want to wrestle, debate and really engage the Word. Your experience may be that many will keep quiet in cell ministry. I think that is because most grew up in pastor dominated churches. Once the quiet ones open up, watch out!
I think you know I see pastors, officers and priests as shepherds, leading from behind. I don't believe that we are the repositories of all knowledge. For us to think that we have a lock on truth and that we are responsible to feed our people, instead of guiding them to the feeding ground and then eating with them (how's that for metaphor?) may well be extra-biblical. After all, don't we believe in the priesthood of all believers?
I think the current model may reinforce some bad habits. Yes, I think preaching is important. I really respect preachers. I am one!!!!! Maybe though we need to look to a new model that still keeps the Word central to all we do.
Here are the questions:
Is preaching over-rated? Are there better ways to engage the Word? Would we be better to be more communal to our approach to learning? Should we have more theology or preaching taught in our seminaries and training schools? Are pastors/officers specially gifted, because they are called to teach and preach? Last question. Should there have been a preaching contest?
I am struggling with this. Honestly, I am really struggling.
What do you think?
34 Comments:
For a very long time I have been trying to figure out why I am so unhappy in my walk with God, I feel so far from Him right now. I think that you've hit the nail on the head for me. I have not allowed myself to be led to a 'feeding ground'. I've been sitting and watching. Curtis and I actually used to write down the misspoken words our former officers have said (not you, Brett!). And that distracts from the word he/she was trying to put across to us. I can relate to that comment about the cell groups. This blog for me has brought me back to questioning myself and trying to get myself back to a point where I am close to God and allowing HIM to lead me and not just be a source of entertainment (or worse, an obligation)
And for the record, the preaching contest....WWWHHHHAAAATTTT? that's kinda funny in a bizare kind of way! did they win money? I'm not sure it was a great thing to do, but what did she win for? style, amplitude, content? I'm not sure how you would even judge such a contest..I know preachers who are 'soft-spoken' who have stirred me more than the rowdy, hell-fire and brimstone preachers.
and for the record, I hate the word "PREACHER" It implies to me that they are spitting out words - I like the word 'PASTOR' much better...more than just words.
thanks for letting me 'preach'.
hil,
thanks..not sure what the prize was for the preaching contest. maybe it was a new Bible?
i am wondering though, whether you really are allowing the Body to lead you as well to the feeding ground. the pastor and the Body are critical and the gps to the feeding ground.
enjoy your journey.
A few immediate thoughts on this...
The fact that even the word "preach" has been twisted negatively gives us insight into what the problems may be. "Don't preach to me" often means "Don't talk down to me, don't be condescending toward me, don't treat me like a child," at least in today's language. But I think effective preaching is like what is often said by a youth pastor I respect - "We're on the same road - I may be at a different place than you - let me help you learn what I've learned as we walk together."
Teach more theology? Yes. More preaching? Yes and yes again. Preaching is effective communication. That's why Joel Osteen preaches in a converted NBA arena - because he communicates. What he's communicating is another matter. That's not to say the content is unimportant. It is to say that communication is almost as important as content, and should not be neglected.
I don't think preaching is over-rated - perhaps the other elements of our group worship are under-rated. I'm starting to think that at our Corps we give "the other things" a raw deal. Maybe we need more sharing of testimonies (prepared & spontaneous), maybe more prayer, maybe more creativity. This is what's challenging me in these days.
As for the special gifts, allow me to paraphrase a passage of a favorite movie of our family, The Incredibles - "When everyone's super, no one will be." I mean that in a good way - we are all gifted differently, for the betterment of the church. And because we are all gifted, no one stands above (or below, for that matter) anyone else. At least, that's how I see it.
Brett,
Something has to give.. If other things are under-rated, then maybe preaching is put on too high a platform.
I agree that the rest of the teaching and the worship gathering needs to be brought into prominence more. Especially as we get in a participatory age, people will want their voice and feelings to be heard and will want their knowledge shared.
Kevin,
Welcome to the blog....You make some good points about the preaching leaving us bloated. I think that we are not teaching people to feed in a healthy way.
L
Dave,
Well-said.
Okay, taking the last question first...PREACHING CONTEST?! ARE YA KIDDIN' ME?
Anyway, I think you are right that there may be too much emphasis put on "the sermon" and that our people (myself included in this) haven't been trained over the years to feed ourselves outside of the sunday service. It's a little ironic, but I've learned to "feed myself" in personal devotions through sermon prep time. Maybe that is one way we could teach people...letting go of our pulpits more often and letting more non-officers preach. Obviously we would have to be careful that they are not going to have any false teachings, but it wold definitely get them into their own Bible. Some of my best "light bulb" moments since I've been an officer have been during those sermon prep times and then I've been able to share those epiphanies with the congregation.
I think that overall we still need preaching, but it is only one of the MANY spiritual gifts listed in the Bible. There are many other ways to "hear the Gospel".
In His Grip,
Dave
salarmyofficership.blogspot.com
Lots to say on this but very little time. So I'll just mention this one thing for now.
Why is it that once somebody decides that they're called to the ministry we automatically asume that, at least in some small way, they're called to preach? Having a "calling" on your life does not automatically grant you the gift of prophecy (new testament word for preaching).
Unfortunately, for too many of us, we sit under the leadership of somebody who is not gifted in prophecy yet, because of his title, must prophecy anyways.
I don't think that this is exactly what God (or the New Testament writers) had in mind.
But how do we change/solve this???
Dave,
By saying that we must guard against our non-officers giving "false teachings" aren't you asserting that indeed the officer is the repository of all right knowledge? I guess the question is how do we get to lead people to the feeding ground outside of preaching?
Here I go on a tangent (my specialty)...
Our cell group usually includes our church leader (not an officer or lieutenant, for various reasons) and his wife. For the last 2 weeks, however, he's been unavailable... and we've noticed an interesting shift in the group dynamic. People who usually stay quiet no longer rely on him to give the 'right' answers from his superior biblical knowledge. As a result, we've been getting more 'real' dialogue and searching into the text, I think.
So we kicked him out for good ;-)
Evangeline, did you really? Hehe, just asking because you would know my personal interest in the topic! Sorry for continuing the tangent.
But I think the point is similar. If we really are a priesthood of believers there has to be some really good preachers sitting in the congregation not using their gifts to the fullest potential. I guess it's also us the congregation that needs to change the expectations.
My other thought on teaching people to feed themselves is that I am often most fed in my own times with God. Why? I think it has to do with the fact that I am not feeding myself, God is feeding me. It's direct communication. Yes, I have certainly been spoken to powerfully through amazing messengers of God, but those times when it's Him and me, they are some of the most special.
Bec - sort of! Because of his new commitments, and everyone else's preferences and availability, we'll probably stay with the same night, mostly without him. But no, we didn't actually 'kick' him out :-P
Dave & Larry -
I agree, but it seems like we're asking a question similar to this (and I quote Dallas Willard): Would you rather have a car that runs or great insurance on one that does not? My answer - why can't I have both?
I imagine you would answer the same.
Hey Larry: As a CO I haven't preached at my corps since 2003 (of course, we don't have public meetings on Sunday so there are fewer opps than most). Conclude what you will about my view on preaching being possibly over-rated.
The preaching competition was in England and, if I understand correctly, preachers didn't enter and go head-to-head. I think that congregants nominated preachers and, unbeknownst to the preachers, some adjudicators visited on Sunday to listen.
So there wasn't any competition, really.
And if I have it right, it looks like a scheme to get the Gospel some secular press. Good idea.
Much grace,
Stephen Court
armybarmy.com/blog.html
Steve,
Thanks for the clarification on the contest...but still I have a hard time with the whole concept of adjudicators. Even if the preachers did not know, I think the whole idea of rating a sermon is really out of bounds.
Thanks for weighing in.
Brett,
Care to elaborate? I did not get that last one.
I commented that we should be teaching more theology AND more preaching skills. It seems it was being said, "I'd rather have a bad communicator who is theologically sound (the car that runs) than a good communicator who is theologically unsound (the insurance on the car that does not)." The point of the illustration was to say, "I'd rather have both - a good communicator who is preaching the right stuff."
Brett,
I guess the original question really centered around whether the best way to communicate the gospel is through preaching and whether the model of the pastor being the repository of all knowledge is the best one.
We hear it all the time that people are not being fed. Maybe the real problem is that people don't want to be fed, or to make changes in their life. We are too content. The problem is not always in the preacher/teacher. God can move past a bad deliver if the receiver is open to receive.
In saying this, I am guilty of going to church and playing solitaire on my Palm Pilot during the sermon.
And yet even in times when I feel as if I have received a sermon where the "car runs & I have good insurace", I still feel as if I am running on empty because I may not always have a way of sharing the joy of the ride with others. I need to be able push back on my experiences with others?
sorry i ranted for a moment before...I 'published' a knee-jerk reaction to some of the thoughts your post stirred up.
Personally, I think sometimes preaching IS over-rated. This goes back to the conversation on the emergent church and leadership (I'm seeing a trend, larry) where we talk about the relationship between leaders and their 'flock'. Preaching, in my humble, non-officer/non-preacher opinion, cannot be the only avenue a pastor uses to reach people. It cannot be the only way. It doesnt work.
I find many of the statements made here to be true for me. I have felt many times that I am not being fed, and I have had to re-examine why. Most of the time it's not because the officer/paster did not deliver a good message. A message to a large group of people will not always meet everyone where they are. More often than not, it's me. I'm the reason I don't feel fed. My mind is on other things...many other things and not concentrating on God and God alone! (of course a good preacher does keep my attention more than a mediocre or unskilled one)
That's why Bible studies and cell groups and fellowship are so important. Now comes the next issue for me, there really isn't much by way of fellowship for someone like me. 30-something, children, broke...you know the drill. Most Army events are too expensive for both my husband and I to go to...blah, blah, blah...that was not my point.
My point was just to say that fellowship and close-quarters conversation on my walk with God is what has always touched me and moved me and shaken me the most.
Your analogy of a 'movie style' church is right-on. We like the entertainment. "Heart of Worship" that song is all about that. Not worrying about what's around us, but focusing only on God. It's hard to do sometimes, especially if your corps is struggling.
I would welcome a prayer meeting on Sunday morning. Unplugged. Just us and God, put people in different groups - those they wouldn't normally group with...get alittle uncomfortable.
You asked if we should be teaching more preaching and theology in sfot....YES!!!! Absolutely! I think a fundamental problem the Army has that has made it schitzophrenic is that the officer is all things...pastor, youth pastor, business administrator, public relations...all things! it's too much. all those other things distract from what they are really trying to do. BRING SOULS TO CHRIST.
Ok, so I couldn't read this without making a comment.
I believe that we have a responsibility to know our congregation (the "sheep"). If we are out of touch with their needs and spiritual struggles, how can we give them direction from the pulpit (or in a cell group even). Also, I know there have been times when I've heard sermons that were soapboxes more than biblical lessons and challenges. A platform for the officer/pastor to vent to the congregation without using names.
So, I guess the answer to the question is...yes! We need more theological discussion AND biblical teaching principles.
We could go on about styles, creativity, and relevance just as with worship content and "structure", but what it comes down to is this...what word does the Lord have for us as a body of believers and as individuals today (and what will be the best way to get this point across to them)? Manytimes "preachers" get caught up in the weekly sermon preparation crunch that they are giving their people fast-food internet sermons. Or are opening the word and selecting the scripture behind the pulpit sunday morning (seriously, been in a worship service when that's happened). We must not take instruction and facilitating learning/growth lightly, when we do this is where our people suffer. This is where they begin to get lazy in their spirit.
I agree with Josh. I don't always listen to the message on a Sunday morning. I just think that I am "right" with God and don't need it. I get really bored really quickly when it's the same people talking every Sunday. All we do it sit, listen, and leave. There needs to be more interaction and dicussion. When I went to the youth Holiness advanc, after every session we broke up into small groups and talked about the session we were just in. It was a good way to understand what the session was about. People really open up in small groups. The people who wouldn't say a word on the first day, were sharing their thoughts and even testimonies the next day! It is such a great way to build relationships with people. Sure it may be out of people's comfort zones but people will definitely grow because of it. I can't begin tell you how beneficial the youth holiness advance was and how much I learned from it.
As for preaching being over-rated, I'm not sure. I think that its good but people can get into the word in other ways.
Ok, so I've got a plug for my blog. The question for this week is about accountability and the church! Check it out...I think all this really boils down to keeping ourselves and our intentions in check! :-)
Now that I've had a couple of days, my 'tangent' seems more applicable (to me).
Our small group was having difficulty because we relied on our church's preacher to have the 'right' answers to theological questions. We didn't have to look at it and say, "if this means ____, then that would mean ____ in my life" or "_____ is working fine in my life atm, so it must mean something else".
Maybe we lose out when we don't see a need to wrestle with God's word. What do you think, people? I do think there's a place for preaching (as in, applying God's word to life today)... but I'm wondering if we rely too much on an impersonal speech from behind the lectern and too little on going to others and saying, "hey, I don't get this, and I've been struggling for days to understand it. Can you help?" The first is very detached... the second seems to me to be more community-minded.
Make sense? At all?
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Great post. I think “preaching” as we know it today is a product of the church culture. It’s difficult for us to think outside the “Sunday morning” idea of communicating the Word because that’s all that most of us know – that’s all that’s really ever been done (with some exceptions). We need to be able to communicate with the cultures in which God is calling to reach.
Teach theology? Preaching? Not to undermine either, but I think we need to educate our officers and leaders on cross-cultural ministry. With the church (and especially the Army) being a culture of its own, we are all missionaries. We need to understand, identify with, and communicate with the various sub-cultures in our community.
The point is not to grow our Sunday morning attendance. The point is to “make disciples.”
I have posted a somewhat similar thought on my blog. Check it out if you have a minute. I would be interested in your thoughts.
Blessings,
Bret
http://armytalk.blogspot.com/
Nicole,
Excellent point on sermons becoming soapboxes. We should never take the Word of God that lightly!!! Facilitating interaction is the key.
Blueman,
Wonderful thought on the sermon and teaching being in the week's activities! I engage with teachers who engage with me!
Evangeline,
I would be careful calling sermons "impersonal" I believe that the overwhelming majority of preachers prepare with the best intentions and prayerfully consider the heart of the people they speak to. Most, I believe are motivated by the love for the people in the congregation.
You are right though, it is not just to rely on that for feeding. There is often not much interaction with the Word.
Larry,
'Impersonal' as in 'not addressed to me personally', I guess :-) This morning, the contrast that occurred to me is going up to someone who knows me well (eg. preacher) and saying, "So, what do you think I most need to work on? Where am I really falling down and causing damage?"
MuchMusic had a segment called "Intimate and Interactive". That's what i think meetings should be. People crave interaction. By 'people' i mean everyone, but most especially those who may not be following Christ. People who have been used to church, or been 'conditioned' may be far more tolerant and may withstand a lot more monotony or even boredom, because they've adapted. They may even think "This is what church is like, you just have to put up with it." I don't think that people unused to this will be able to stand it, if they don't feel drawn in, part of things, able to relate. In that context I have a 'problem' with unengaging preaching and never changing 'Sunday routines'.
I feel sick!
Honestly, I am disgusted about the preaching contest! "Let's measure how much God has blessed you and raise you up for it!" Blah, makes me mad!
On the Pastor/Preacher thing, I thought they were too different gifts; granted both need to be effective communicators, but you can be one and not another. I can think of a wonderful woman officer, hugely gifted as a pastor, not at all a preacher-girl. I'm sure it works both ways.
Gotta tell you, my best moments with God is when I am preparing for a soemthing; feel like Queen of the World as I learn something that God taught me, just me; it was only He and I in the room. My relationship is with Him, not me and Him with the help of the preacher kid.
Kudos to Tim - I actually had managed to separate Prophecy and Preaching in my mind - stupid really, both are about realising the word that God has for His people at that moment! Doh! Thanks for sorting that out for me!
Just to stir the pot, I googled "Preaching Contest," and I got results! So if anyone is looking for some extra cash, here's some sites! (said with the completely unspiritual gift of sarcasm)
http://www.baptisthistory.org/preachingcontest.htm
http://www.disciples.org/dns/releases2001/2001a41.htm
http://www.bju.edu/bja/triangle/feb20.pdf
http://www.sharperiron.org/archive/index.php/t-2364.html
At the risk of showing up for dinner after the dessert has been served, could I add just one more thought?
I don't think I am equipped to claim I know what people want from their preacher in regards to style (interactive or not, etc) since it seems to me that this preference varies more with age than anything.
However, whether there is a place for preaching or not, for me, comes down to whether that person is really doing what they are called to do. As the pastor/officer they are given the incredible gift of time committed to things of the Lord (recognizing that there are a million other demands on an officer - I am speaking somewhat theoretically here). Basically, most of our "work" time is supposed to be committed to being with people and the Word (whether it be preparing for preaching, Bible study, personal devotions, developing Bible based programs or whatever). Also, I certainly see the benefits of bringing the church together (at least once or twice a week) to re-focus our direction as a group. If this is the case, wouldn't the person who has the charge to be with the bulk of the folks and to be saturated in the Word (even if it is in relation to other duties) be the one to maybe have a pretty good feel for where the group is and maybe needs?
Certainly the congregation is called to have the same focus and attention on the people around them as well as the Lord and His Word, but reality all too often says this isn't possible to the same level because of the other demands of making a living outside of traditional ministry vocations.
I guess one of the problems that all too often surfaces is that people called to full-time (paid)ministry choose to live and work as if they were called to a job that more closely resembles that of an executive.
Having said all of that, maybe the real job of the preacher is to just start the conversations.
jim,
"Maybe the job of the preacher is to start conversations." Well-said
This is well said. Maybe it is the job of this blogger as well.
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