Shaking Hands or Shaping Faith?
It has been a while since I have blogged. I really have had a difficult time thinking of material to stimulate conversation. Some would call this "writer's block." After all, not all of us can be Jim Knaggs :) I have come to realize that there is a bit of dryness here.
I am not sure if it is lack of stimulation, lack of good topics (probably not the case)or just the fact that there has been some significant self-examination which is probably too personal at this point for me to share with the whole world via the web. Whatever the case, I am walking through this period really trying to find again the edgy nature and the controversial themes that have been my desire to discuss in this blog.
I guess it brings me to this. I have taken a yearly pilgrimage, with Janet, to Old Orchard Beach, ME every year for our territory's camp meeting series for the last 13 years or so. This is the first time in all those years we have missed. My mentor/divisional leader and his wife went. They deserved the break. They work incredibly hard and have had an unbelievably stressful year. I was glad they could go. That meant I had to stay home and "mind the store."
I admit, I was not really anxious to go this year. I do miss the beach. I do miss my yearly visits to the places like Two Lights, the Good Table and Camp Sebago. I do miss my yearly visit with a couple of very dear friends who live nearby Old Orchard. When people asked me if I was going this year, I simply quipped, "Too many generals for me this year." This was the year the retired generals who are still alive and our current general were the guests for Old Orchard. I have great respect for all of them. In fact, I have personal ties to a couple of them and cherish the way they have spoken into my life. My desire not to go came from something else.
Last year about this time, I blogged on whether this series of camp meetings was about reunion or renewal. It is hard to separate the two. I know there are many who enjoy the meetings. I know others who go simply to catch up on friendships. I would hasten to say the latter is just as important as the meetings. What is the church without deep relationship?
I guess what I was feeling this year was a tug at my heart about who I hang out with. I run with mostly Christians. They are of all stripes ranging from conservative, to progressive, evangelicals to more reformed thinkers.
I have, though, stumbled upon a new circle of friends. Like me, they are asking hard questions about life, faith, ethics, the church and relationship. Unlike me, they are not necessarily claiming to be "saved." No matter what your definition is of that term, they don't claim it. (I can see the comments now regarding the idea of being saved.) They are people of "faith." They are "spiritual." They are not necessarily "religious." They are GOOD people. They ask me some really tough questions about faith. They have no pretense about where they are.
Recently, I have come to understand how much fun they are. I have come to the point that I really love to hang out with them. I have come to the point where, what I receive from them in honesty and unconditional acceptance, is not always what I find among my more religious friends. I laugh a great deal. I have begun to learn a great deal as well.
As a professional Christian (I get paid for this. Thanks, Phil Wall for that term.)I have often thought that I had a lock on truth. My mission was to conquer the world for Jesus (like He needs my help? I know that is a whole other debate.). My evangelistic push came from a desire to get as many people "saved" as I could. I still want people to have intimate relationship with Jesus. I want my new friends to know Jesus deeply. What my new friends have given me, is an outlook on my motivation and on my methodology and let's face it, on my faith walk.
The seminal moment came a few weeks ago. One of my new friends came to ask me a question about "theology." They had heard a very well-meaning person say, "You got to give it all over to God," when speaking about the issue of trials. As we sat together and pondered those things, my friend asked, "How exactly is one supposed to do that? Don't we need to think? Don't we need to struggle a bit? Don't we need to try to seek for some truth?" I found myself answering "yes" to those questions.
My friend said, "I am not religious. I am spiritual. I would rather talk to you than Jesus." I was somewhat taken aback. I began to realize that I did not have a lock on truth. I did have knowledge of Scripture and hold it as inspired. I pray often, in fact daily. I realized that my definition of being saved was pretty weak. I needed to be sharpened more by these questions and by the shock of a statement about Jesus and me being on equal terms, than I did another meeting or the sharing of a few hugs with old friends, who I still love as much as life.
I missed my pilgrimage. I missed the beach, saying "hello" to friends and yes, hanging around the Pavilion during the meetings. I can't, however, at this point in my journey miss out on the sharpening of my faith the way my new friends bring the challenge to me. I can't get that in a church meeting right now. I have been getting it from some people who don't claim to know Jesus. They are showing me things about myself and about my walk with Jesus in a new and fresh way. They make me think about and wrestle with faith, instead of having it fed to me.
Please don't take this as an affront against the meeting together of saints. Old Orchard Beach is important in the faith journey of many, so is attending the Holiness Meeting. Don't stop doing that! Maybe I will need to experience my pilgrimage again next year. I would like to see my old friends again.
For me right now, I just need this way of building relationships to really shape me. I hope that makes sense.
So my questions are simple. They will reveal something about the current state of our depth of community. Is it really possible to have your faith shaped this way outside of church as we know? What do you prefer, hanging with those of no faith or those with faith? Why? Can I really be experiencing "church" with those outside of the faith? Should I be shaking hands with more saints?
What do you think?
I am not sure if it is lack of stimulation, lack of good topics (probably not the case)or just the fact that there has been some significant self-examination which is probably too personal at this point for me to share with the whole world via the web. Whatever the case, I am walking through this period really trying to find again the edgy nature and the controversial themes that have been my desire to discuss in this blog.
I guess it brings me to this. I have taken a yearly pilgrimage, with Janet, to Old Orchard Beach, ME every year for our territory's camp meeting series for the last 13 years or so. This is the first time in all those years we have missed. My mentor/divisional leader and his wife went. They deserved the break. They work incredibly hard and have had an unbelievably stressful year. I was glad they could go. That meant I had to stay home and "mind the store."
I admit, I was not really anxious to go this year. I do miss the beach. I do miss my yearly visits to the places like Two Lights, the Good Table and Camp Sebago. I do miss my yearly visit with a couple of very dear friends who live nearby Old Orchard. When people asked me if I was going this year, I simply quipped, "Too many generals for me this year." This was the year the retired generals who are still alive and our current general were the guests for Old Orchard. I have great respect for all of them. In fact, I have personal ties to a couple of them and cherish the way they have spoken into my life. My desire not to go came from something else.
Last year about this time, I blogged on whether this series of camp meetings was about reunion or renewal. It is hard to separate the two. I know there are many who enjoy the meetings. I know others who go simply to catch up on friendships. I would hasten to say the latter is just as important as the meetings. What is the church without deep relationship?
I guess what I was feeling this year was a tug at my heart about who I hang out with. I run with mostly Christians. They are of all stripes ranging from conservative, to progressive, evangelicals to more reformed thinkers.
I have, though, stumbled upon a new circle of friends. Like me, they are asking hard questions about life, faith, ethics, the church and relationship. Unlike me, they are not necessarily claiming to be "saved." No matter what your definition is of that term, they don't claim it. (I can see the comments now regarding the idea of being saved.) They are people of "faith." They are "spiritual." They are not necessarily "religious." They are GOOD people. They ask me some really tough questions about faith. They have no pretense about where they are.
Recently, I have come to understand how much fun they are. I have come to the point that I really love to hang out with them. I have come to the point where, what I receive from them in honesty and unconditional acceptance, is not always what I find among my more religious friends. I laugh a great deal. I have begun to learn a great deal as well.
As a professional Christian (I get paid for this. Thanks, Phil Wall for that term.)I have often thought that I had a lock on truth. My mission was to conquer the world for Jesus (like He needs my help? I know that is a whole other debate.). My evangelistic push came from a desire to get as many people "saved" as I could. I still want people to have intimate relationship with Jesus. I want my new friends to know Jesus deeply. What my new friends have given me, is an outlook on my motivation and on my methodology and let's face it, on my faith walk.
The seminal moment came a few weeks ago. One of my new friends came to ask me a question about "theology." They had heard a very well-meaning person say, "You got to give it all over to God," when speaking about the issue of trials. As we sat together and pondered those things, my friend asked, "How exactly is one supposed to do that? Don't we need to think? Don't we need to struggle a bit? Don't we need to try to seek for some truth?" I found myself answering "yes" to those questions.
My friend said, "I am not religious. I am spiritual. I would rather talk to you than Jesus." I was somewhat taken aback. I began to realize that I did not have a lock on truth. I did have knowledge of Scripture and hold it as inspired. I pray often, in fact daily. I realized that my definition of being saved was pretty weak. I needed to be sharpened more by these questions and by the shock of a statement about Jesus and me being on equal terms, than I did another meeting or the sharing of a few hugs with old friends, who I still love as much as life.
I missed my pilgrimage. I missed the beach, saying "hello" to friends and yes, hanging around the Pavilion during the meetings. I can't, however, at this point in my journey miss out on the sharpening of my faith the way my new friends bring the challenge to me. I can't get that in a church meeting right now. I have been getting it from some people who don't claim to know Jesus. They are showing me things about myself and about my walk with Jesus in a new and fresh way. They make me think about and wrestle with faith, instead of having it fed to me.
Please don't take this as an affront against the meeting together of saints. Old Orchard Beach is important in the faith journey of many, so is attending the Holiness Meeting. Don't stop doing that! Maybe I will need to experience my pilgrimage again next year. I would like to see my old friends again.
For me right now, I just need this way of building relationships to really shape me. I hope that makes sense.
So my questions are simple. They will reveal something about the current state of our depth of community. Is it really possible to have your faith shaped this way outside of church as we know? What do you prefer, hanging with those of no faith or those with faith? Why? Can I really be experiencing "church" with those outside of the faith? Should I be shaking hands with more saints?
What do you think?
posted by Larry at 3:48 PM
3 Comments:
“So my questions are simple.” : ) Not sure that I entirely agree, but here goes anyway.
“Is it really possible to have your faith shaped this way outside of church as we know?”
My faith has also been greatly shaped by my lost and/or fringe church friends. It’s not that the “traditional church” can’t and doesn’t shape me, but having grown up in the church and a Christian school, and having served in the church for seventeen years now, I now find great challenges through those who have a different point of view. One of the greatest challenges is simply learning to see mission all around me. And I often do that through these people.
“What do you prefer, hanging with those of no faith or those with faith?”
: ) I guess it depends on the people. I will say that I do find it refreshing to hang out with people who are lost. With my Christian friends I find that our conversations almost always turn to the church. With my lost friends our conversations cover the gamut and, when we talk of spiritual things, we talk about faith, not church.
“Can I really be experiencing ‘church’ with those outside of the faith?
I wouldn’t suggest that my fellowship with non-believers is church. In fact, even in our local church plant, Jamie and I are very careful not to yet call it a church. Because it isn’t. Our hope is that it one day becomes a church, but right now it’s a group of lost people that we hope to journey with. “The Church” is involved and supports what we do, but I wouldn’t yet call the group of people we’re in relationship with, “the church”. In my opinion, and with how I read scripture, that’s just not the case.
As far as whether or not we should be shaking hands with more saints, and as always, I think there’s a balance. For years many of us have done nothing but shake hands with Saints. I think many of us are now recognizing that and are looking for ways to shake hands with more sinners. But there’s certainly a danger in that becoming all we do. I believe in spiritual accountability and that’s hard to come by through people who don’t necessarily share your faith.
Balance. Sick of that word yet?
Larry,
I avoid Old orchard Beach like the plague. It's not that i have a problem with the meeting i actually enjoy them very much. I have been spiritually everytime i have gone (well since i started caring about spiritual things)
My problem is that i have a tendency to become a bit cynical, sarcastic and even bitter when i am around large groups of salvationists. (you've seen me at these events in fact we shared a particular moment at this past congress that will be forever seered into my memory)
I avoid OOB because i have grown enough in my walk to know that while these events are beneficial for many, they are a stumbling block for me.
IT is at OOB in particular but other large gatherings of Salvationists as well, that i get frustrated with cultural salvationism.
We all converge on Old Orchard Beach Maine for a couple of weeks out of the year we fill every hotel every resturant and every street with our 15 passanger vans.
This is where i become a cynic.
We gather in groups and gossip about which of our brother's and sisters have recently fallen. we are obnoxious to restruant servers and often poor tippers to boot. We stop our 15 passanger vans anywhere we want in order to drop off, pick up or just just catch up with that old friend regardless of the traffic laws we are violating or the number of cars lining up behind us.
We focus inward at the grove while we claim to be evangelistic at our core and we put on creative shows at the boadwalk so we can do evangelis allthewhile keeping the heathens at arms length rather than building real relationships with them.
When I go to OOB while it is going on i stand in a circle with a few of the other illuminati denouncing the whole charade as less than Christ-like, all the while i my self am guilty of all the same infraction + 1. when i return home and think about the event i must accept that i am also the difinitive hypocrite.
So for now i stay away when i can. I pray that i can get beyond myself and put on the character of Christ.
I realize i didn't answer your question about spiritul growth withn non-Christian friends. but you left so much that was respondable.
It really is quite amazing how many people from Evangelical traditions (not just SA) are asking big questions about their faith and the usefulness of some of the concepts they have traditionally believed in. You can count me in on this group.
I've been on the journey of questions for a few years now. Lots of books about emerging expressions of Christianity have been helpful. The book, 'The Post-Evangelical' by Dave Tomlinson resonated with me (although at times he hits the ball to left field and then some). More recently a required study of atonement theories gave me some refreshing insight into the purpose of Christ's death which is now shapping my whole faith. (Could it be that the Son of God went through death for more than merely being a substitute for a convicted and sentenced sinner like me????)
These things have been shaping my faith. Also, people of little or no faith whom I have come to know have definately caused me to develop my faith - they don't accept the simlpe, glib answers that have been taught for too long in Evangelicalism. They have a hard time accepting a deeper theological presentation too, so I'm at a bit of a loss! I do, however, really enjoy being with friends like this. (I too get frustrated - and bored - at some Christian gatherings, but I think the responsibility for that should be shared).
As for asking what it means to be church, there's the big question which is selling lots of books, conferences and training courses. Frost and Hirsch ('The Shapping of Things to Come' - another great book) distill church to be:
Communion (in Relationship with Christ)
Community (in Relationship with One Another)
Commission (in Relationship with the World)
(The alliteration betrays their Evangelical preaching background!)
Of course, aligning an emerging understanding of faith while at the same time being true to the Christian movement you have dedicated yourself to can be hard.
Anyway, if you are looking for inspiration for your next posting, why not present more of the questions you are being asked by your friends? Perhaps they will match up with the questions we are all asking/being asked.
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